Blackburn

[CatholicLeft]

So, a statement from Mr Murray on why he is standing in Blackburn. A long way into his linked statement until he mentions anything about wider policies, and nary a mention of Blackburn's problems. Nothing but race-splitting trouble making.
I am now dreading the election campaign in my town.

[right]

Apr 15, 2024 7:28:32 GMT CatholicLeft said:

The buffoon who wants to be my MP, proving he is nothing more than an Iranian stooge:

Maybe he's smelling what's selling?

[The Bishop]

He's a genuine unhinged crank though, so let's not presume that eh.

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 11:19:45 GMT The Bishop said:

He's a genuine unhinged crank though, so let's not presume that eh.

No, I don't agree.
He is opposed to Israel and agrees about Gaza, particularly genocide.
You disagree. It doesn't help using 'crank'. Does that mean I have similar views?

[The Bishop]

Lots of people are opposed to those things, without being like Murray or his mate Galloway.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Apr 16, 2024 11:59:41 GMT The Bishop said:

Lots of people are opposed to those things, without being like Murray or his mate Galloway.

And right on cue, he's gone with announcing his candidature by asserting that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are controlled by "the Zionist lobby".
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/04/i-stand-in-blackburn/

No tropes here, kids.

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 12:43:18 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Apr 16, 2024 11:59:41 GMT The Bishop said:

Lots of people are opposed to those things, without being like Murray or his mate Galloway.

And right on cue, he's gone with announcing his candidature by asserting that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are controlled by "the Zionist lobby".
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/04/i-stand-in-blackburn/

No tropes here, kids.

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

[batman]

Apr 16, 2024 11:37:43 GMT Merseymike said:

Apr 16, 2024 11:19:45 GMT The Bishop said:

He's a genuine unhinged crank though, so let's not presume that eh.

No, I don't agree.
He is opposed to Israel and agrees about Gaza, particularly genocide.
You disagree. It doesn't help using 'crank'. Does that mean I have similar views?

frankly, Mike, I'd have to say that some of your views are cranky. Not perhaps as much as his, but I wouldn't be able to absolve you of crankiness altogether.

Murray has shown amply that the word crank is perfectly fair when applied to him. He's just a common-or-garden anti-Semite dressed up as a principled opponent of Israel. 

[batman]

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Apr 16, 2024 12:43:18 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

And right on cue, he's gone with announcing his candidature by asserting that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are controlled by "the Zionist lobby".
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/04/i-stand-in-blackburn/

No tropes here, kids.

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

and Jews more generally.

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 13:30:45 GMT batman said:

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

and Jews more generally.

I don't agree.

[batman]

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Apr 16, 2024 12:43:18 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

And right on cue, he's gone with announcing his candidature by asserting that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are controlled by "the Zionist lobby".
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/04/i-stand-in-blackburn/

No tropes here, kids.

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

Mike, do you seriously think that "a Zionist lobby" controls Shadow Cabinet ministers? Do you really think that they are beholden to a foreign power?

In reality, Israel is dependent on patronage from the United States & its major allies, not the other way round. The narrative that a shadowy Jewish conspiracy controls the world, or important parts of it, is Nazi-origin & after nearly 80 years after WWII ended we should all know better than to associate ourselves with any of their lunatic mass-murdering ideas. 

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 13:33:34 GMT batman said:

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

Mike, do you seriously think that "a Zionist lobby" controls Shadow Cabinet ministers? Do you really think that they are beholden to a foreign power?

In reality, Israel is dependent on patronage from the United States & its major allies, not the other way round. The narrative that a shadowy Jewish conspiracy controls the world, or important parts of it, is Nazi-origin & after nearly 80 years after WWII ended we should all know better than to associate ourselves with any of their lunatic mass-murdering ideas. 

I don't use the word 'controlling'. Or 'conspiracy'.
However, I'm not pro-Zionist, nor pro-Israel, and I know you disagree.
I have similar views, and have not changed.

[batman]

I know you don't use them - that's why Murray is further up the crank scale than you are. But, he does. Do you agree with what he says? You have implied that he's just anti-Zionist, but surely a formulation such as this says a great deal more than that.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Apr 16, 2024 12:43:18 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

And right on cue, he's gone with announcing his candidature by asserting that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are controlled by "the Zionist lobby".
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/04/i-stand-in-blackburn/

No tropes here, kids.

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

If he thinks that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are being controlled by other people, then he should name names, surely?

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 14:51:27 GMT batman said:

I know you don't use them - that's why Murray is further up the crank scale than you are. But, he does. Do you agree with what he says? You have implied that he's just anti-Zionist, but surely a formulation such as this says a great deal more than that.

As I have said I don't think about the "crank scale". It's unlikely any party would support the Workers Party. Similarly I don't agree such about the 40% cabinet office.

I don't agree about Starmer's views. I'm sure some left wing MP's disagree. Generally I supported Corbyn's views.

[john07]

Apr 16, 2024 15:05:24 GMT Merseymike said:

Apr 16, 2024 14:51:27 GMT batman said:

I know you don't use them - that's why Murray is further up the crank scale than you are. But, he does. Do you agree with what he says? You have implied that he's just anti-Zionist, but surely a formulation such as this says a great deal more than that.

As I have said I don't think about the "crank scale". It's unlikely any party would support the Workers Party. Similarly I don't agree such about the 40% cabinet office.

I don't agree about Starmer's views. I'm sure some left wing MP's disagree. Generally I supported Corbyn's views.

Yet you initially supported Andy Burnham as party leader on here before switching to Corbyn when he started to build up support.

[right]

Apr 16, 2024 14:52:17 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Apr 16, 2024 13:11:44 GMT Merseymike said:

Obviously he opposes Zionism. And?

If he thinks that 40 per cent of the Shadow Cabinet are being controlled by other people, then he should name names, surely?

He said "40% of Labour’s shadow cabinet, at least, are financed by the zionist lobby."  That's not the same as controlled.

I think it comes from this article:

www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/

"Some 13 of the 31 members of Labour’s shadow cabinet have received donations from a prominent pro-Israel lobby group or individual funder, it can be revealed."

I was going to do some research on this to show up Craig Murray was a bit of a crank, but apart from a question of nuance of saying "zionist lobby" rather than "pro-Israel donors" or even "pro-Israel lobby" I don't think that this could be called innacurate.  I would question whether financing Lisa Nandy, who's got a pro-Palestinian record, is getting them much of a return. Also the original article makes it clear that both donors, Trevor Chinn and Labour Friends of Israel, although certainly pro-Israel and probably caught by the dictionary definition of Zionism are certainly no Likudniks.

But still 40% of Labour's shadow cabinet certainly seem to be financed by pro-Israel lobbyists.  

[batman]

Trevor Chinn is associated with the New Israel Fund. To describe it as "pro-Israel" is really not accurate. It believes in Israel's right to exist within secure borders, but works for fundamental change in Israel. Another person strongly associated with it has been Rhea Wolfson(-Rogers), the former Momentumite Labour Party NEC member. Many anti-Zionists fail to understand the main purpose of the New Israel Fund and lazily describe it as pro-Israel; in fact it is barely more supportive of Israel than, to give just one example, Jeremy Corbyn. It wishes Israel well, and is essentially a Jewish organisation, but it is just not what many people think it is. It is strongly contrasting with the JNF, the Jewish National Fund, which is far more supportive of most of Israel's policies & actions than the NIF. The NIF's outlook is completely in line with Labour Party policy, not just now but when the party was under Corbyn's leadership. There is therefore no contradiction with them financing Lisa Nandy.

[right]

Apr 16, 2024 17:52:53 GMT batman said:

Trevor Chinn is associated with the New Israel Fund. To describe it as "pro-Israel" is really not accurate. It believes in Israel's right to exist within secure borders, but works for fundamental change in Israel. Another person strongly associated with it has been Rhea Wolfson(-Rogers), the former Momentumite Labour Party NEC member. Many anti-Zionists fail to understand the main purpose of the New Israel Fund and lazily describe it as pro-Israel; in fact it is barely more supportive of Israel than, to give just one example, Jeremy Corbyn. It wishes Israel well, and is essentially a Jewish organisation, but it is just not what many people think it is. It is strongly contrasting with the JNF, the Jewish National Fund, which is far more supportive of most of Israel's policies & actions than the NIF. The NIF's outlook is completely in line with Labour Party policy, not just now but when the party was under Corbyn's leadership. There is therefore no contradiction with them financing Lisa Nandy.

That's useful, thank you

[Merseymike]

Apr 16, 2024 16:58:53 GMT john07 said:

Apr 16, 2024 15:05:24 GMT Merseymike said:

As I have said I don't think about the "crank scale". It's unlikely any party would support the Workers Party. Similarly I don't agree such about the 40% cabinet office.

I don't agree about Starmer's views. I'm sure some left wing MP's disagree. Generally I supported Corbyn's views.

Yet you initially supported Andy Burnham as party leader on here before switching to Corbyn when he started to build up support.

Like most people, I thought Burnham would have been ok, but wasn't great. Corbyn's views were closer to mine.