Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2023 18:53:47 GMT
Right-wing is an actual term with an actual definition, not code for "exactly what I believe". By any sensible or widely accepted definition, VVD qualify as a right-wing party, and CDA are a centre-right one (arguably, D66 could qualify as well) Well when the definitions itself are cooked up by lefties, I don’t see a reason to accept them. 100 idiots whether with degrees or not calling a cat a dog doesn’t make it a dog. You really have no idea how idiotic that sounds do you? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2023 18:54:24 GMT
In what sense are VVD and CDA not right-wing?
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Post by ibfc on Mar 18, 2023 18:55:03 GMT
Well when the definitions itself are cooked up by lefties, I don’t see a reason to accept them. 100 idiots whether with degrees or not calling a cat a dog doesn’t make it a dog. You really have no idea how idiotic that sounds do you? Well I don’t need certificates from anyone let alone someone stupid enough to type D66 and right wing in the same sentence. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Mar 18, 2023 18:56:26 GMT
I also wonder if the pattern of populist parties doing well, then collapsing and being replaced by a new one is in some way related to the legacy of the Lijst Pim Fortuyn who I believe still hold the record for the best general election result for a new party, although my knowledge of Dutch political culture isn't good enough to do more than make an educated guess It's more about the collapse of social pillarization making the old consensus model of politics unviable for all that (especially that?) the traditional parties have trained to maintain it, but it was a sign of what was to come. |
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aargauer
Conservative
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Post by aargauer on Mar 18, 2023 19:05:04 GMT
In what sense are VVD and CDA not right-wing? I would say VVD and CDA are centre, the former perhaps a touch right of centre, and D66 comfortably left of centre. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2023 19:17:25 GMT
You really have no idea how idiotic that sounds do you? Well I don’t need certificates from anyone let alone someone stupid enough to type D66 and right wing in the same sentence. Well, I didn't exactly say that, I said you could make a case for them being a right-of-centre party, which is a rather different claim |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Mar 19, 2023 1:30:48 GMT
Right-wing is an actual term with an actual definition, not code for "exactly what I believe". By any sensible or widely accepted definition, VVD qualify as a right-wing party, and CDA are a centre-right one (arguably, D66 could qualify as well) Well when the definitions itself are cooked up by lefties, I don’t see a reason to accept them. 100 idiots whether with degrees or not calling a cat a dog doesn’t make it a dog. I think I'll file this under the growing number of posts by Nationalists of various bents over the last few days that are paragons of how that ideology appears to lend itself to a somewhat skewed view on the world around them. No matter how disparate the Nationalism, the same behaviours just can't be helped but come to the surface. |
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Post by ibfc on Mar 19, 2023 2:02:26 GMT
Well when the definitions itself are cooked up by lefties, I don’t see a reason to accept them. 100 idiots whether with degrees or not calling a cat a dog doesn’t make it a dog. I think I'll file this under the growing number of posts by Nationalists of various bents over the last few days that are paragons of how that ideology appears to lend itself to a somewhat skewed view on the world around them. No matter how disparate the Nationalism, the same behaviours just can't be helped but come to the surface. You should be the last person talking about skewed world-views while having a sanctimonious chip larger than Alaska on your shoulder. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 19, 2023 3:17:42 GMT
VVD is right of centre, not 100% sure about the CDA.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 19, 2023 6:45:16 GMT
The idea that D66 are cenre-right let alone 'right-wing' is risible.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2023 8:27:19 GMT
The growth of the extremes (with an increasing more extreme left wing also) simply means that traditional rivals like VVD and PvdA have to work together, because there are no alternative if you want a more or less stable government. This then fuels the extremes, so that someone like Caroline van der Plas, the BBB leader, can gallop to victory. If history is repeated, within twelve months BBB will have split in at least three factions and they will have achieved nothing. So at the next election a new savior will emerge. FVD split in 3 because their leader lost his mind, BBB is also not as right wing. I'm gonna surprise you: things happened in Dutch politics before 2017. |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 19, 2023 9:15:24 GMT
FVD split in 3 because their leader lost his mind, BBB is also not as right wing. I'm gonna surprise you: things happened in Dutch politics before 2017. LPF was never the largest party in the senate and having your leader murdered is probably a decent excuse to not being the most organized and fading away rather quickly. |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 19, 2023 9:23:13 GMT
The idea that D66 are cenre-right let alone 'right-wing' is risible. i would say that their formation and founding principles are quite a close match for the Lib Dems/Alliance. imho.
One of their two founders Hans Gruijters had been a member of the VVD, and he eventually left D66 because he felt out of sympathy with the party, but what exactly provoked his departure I don't know*. His departure from the VVD in 1966 had been provoked by a royal wedding!
* If anyone does I'd be interested to know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2023 12:11:58 GMT
The idea that D66 are cenre-right let alone 'right-wing' is risible. i would say that their formation and founding principles are quite a close match for the Lib Dems/Alliance. imho.
One of their two founders Hans Gruijters had been a member of the VVD, and he eventually left D66 because he felt out of sympathy with the party, but what exactly provoked his departure I don't know*. His departure from the VVD in 1966 had been provoked by a royal wedding!
* If anyone does I'd be interested to know.
Wikipedia claims he no longer felt welcome in the party. Can't find anything more specific. He was an interesting person, but really at best a second level politician. He was an undistinguished member of the Den Uyl government in the 70s and after that did not achieve any major position. He was perceived as not a team player. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2023 12:12:40 GMT
I'm gonna surprise you: things happened in Dutch politics before 2017. LPF was never the largest party in the senate and having your leader murdered is probably a decent excuse to not being the most organized and fading away rather quickly. I can't quite find the post where I wrote about a Senate Majority. |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 19, 2023 12:17:23 GMT
i would say that their formation and founding principles are quite a close match for the Lib Dems/Alliance. imho.
One of their two founders Hans Gruijters had been a member of the VVD, and he eventually left D66 because he felt out of sympathy with the party, but what exactly provoked his departure I don't know*. His departure from the VVD in 1966 had been provoked by a royal wedding!
* If anyone does I'd be interested to know.
Wikipedia claims he no longer felt welcome in the party. Can't find anything more specific. He was an interesting person, but really at best a second level politician. He was an undistinguished member of the Den Uyl government in the 70s and after that did not achieve any major position. He was perceived as not a team player.Ironic, given that he founded the team.  |
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Post by rcronald on Mar 19, 2023 12:22:26 GMT
LPF was never the largest party in the senate and having your leader murdered is probably a decent excuse to not being the most organized and fading away rather quickly. I can't quite find the post where I wrote about a Senate Majority. So I think we both misunderstood each other 😅 |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 19, 2023 12:34:41 GMT
I can't quite find the post where I wrote about a Senate Majority. So I think we both misunderstood each other 😅 'Double Dutch'. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,005
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Post by Khunanup on Mar 19, 2023 13:59:53 GMT
I think I'll file this under the growing number of posts by Nationalists of various bents over the last few days that are paragons of how that ideology appears to lend itself to a somewhat skewed view on the world around them. No matter how disparate the Nationalism, the same behaviours just can't be helped but come to the surface. You should be the last person talking about skewed world-views while having a sanctimonious chip larger than Alaska on your shoulder. I'm grateful to you for proving my point. Thank-you. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2023 14:03:03 GMT
BBB seems to be better prepared than their predecessors: they have invested a lot of time in team building their new councillors who have also spent a significant time following debates and swotting on the relevant issues. Since they are the largest party everywhere, they have the initiative in forming the new executive in all 12 provinces. Before the election they apparently contacted people from outside their own ranks and asked them if they would lead the prelimenary discussions in case BBB became the biggest party. For instance, the former speaker of the First Chamber and secretary of state for Immigration (comparable with a minister in the UK) and member of the VVD Ankie Broekers will act as such in Noord Holland.
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