cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Oct 20, 2024 8:53:54 GMT
This popped up on my YouTube feed, again from Michael Heaver It's much harder for him to maintain the idea that when Reform stand then the Tories lose, so he's concentrating on the fall in the Labour vote When Reform stand the Tories win far fewer seats. That's what he's trying to gloss over so he concentrates on votes instead. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2024 11:29:16 GMT
This popped up on my YouTube feed, again from Michael Heaver It's much harder for him to maintain the idea that when Reform stand then the Tories lose, so he's concentrating on the fall in the Labour vote When Reform stand the Tories win far fewer seats. That's what he's trying to gloss over so he concentrates on votes instead. Indeed. Labour won a huge majority whatever way you look at it. Even I as someone who spent a lot of time campaigning against Starmer, concede that point. |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Oct 20, 2024 11:33:12 GMT
When Reform stand the Tories win far fewer seats. That's what he's trying to gloss over so he concentrates on votes instead. Indeed. Labour won a huge majority whatever way you look at it. Even I as someone who spent a lot of time campaigning against Starmer, concede that point. But this is about council by-elections since July. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2024 11:35:29 GMT
Indeed. Labour won a huge majority whatever way you look at it. Even I as someone who spent a lot of time campaigning against Starmer, concede that point. But this is about council by-elections since July. But Labour are front loading unpopular stuff. By-election losses in local government are to be expected considering the context. |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Oct 20, 2024 11:55:45 GMT
But this is about council by-elections since July. But Labour are front loading unpopular stuff. By-election losses in local government are to be expected considering the context. I don't think that has usually been the case after a General Election where the ruling party tends to enjoy a bit of a honeymoon period. That's even more the case when there has been a change of party. Instead Labour are now getting creamed, but less so when Reform stand. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 20, 2024 12:15:51 GMT
As previously discussed here, there were large Tory gains in local byelections in the second half of 1997 (even as Labour, unlike now, remained streets ahead in the polls)
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pl
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Post by pl on Oct 20, 2024 12:32:40 GMT
As previously discussed here, there were large Tory gains in local byelections in the second half of 1997 (even as Labour, unlike now, remained streets ahead in the polls) Indeed, and it is a vitally important trend for the Conservatives. Their activist base is more enthused now - and will buoy them into what will be a hard fought set of county council elections. |
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hengog
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Post by hengog on Oct 20, 2024 13:13:13 GMT
I was at a dinner last night and sat with a couple of local councillors. Naturally discussion included local politics and trends. The “Greens” here who have made big strides in local elections in Birkenhead are basically the old Militant bunch (with a few new recruits) just using the Green Party as cover, and are having the predictable disruptive effect on procedures and behaviour . Anyone who recalls the Hatton years will remember the intimidation and bullying . It’s sad to see that stuff coming back, and on this side of the Mersey -albeit in the guise of a different party. In those days they failed over here as Labour- mainstream, moderate, call it what you will, was still strong enough to resist them ,even before the Kinnock speech.
What I couldn’t understand is how this bunch of yahoos have been able to persuade voters to back them in wards rock solid for Labour for generations. I assumed that it was the usual thing of targeting very low turnout wards with mass canvassing - you do have to credit them, like LibDems , with the ability to turn out their loyalists. And of course that is true, but why, with Labour looking like forming the next government , riding high in the polls, and , critically , becoming highly visible and active in the traditional Tory areas in West Wirral ( I was canvassed three times by Labour in Heswall while never, as usual seeing so much as a glimpse of a Conservative), were Labour unable to counter the so called “Greens” in their heartland? Of course they knew the constituency was safe , but their base there is rotting away. Chat focussed on how Reform might well, if they can organise pick up a lot of support there.
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 20, 2024 13:26:29 GMT
I was at a dinner last night and sat with a couple of local councillors. Naturally discussion included local politics and trends. The “Greens” here who have made big strides in local elections in Birkenhead are basically the old Militant bunch (with a few new recruits) just using the Green Party as cover, and are having the predictable disruptive effect on procedures and behaviour . Anyone who recalls the Hatton years will remember the intimidation and bullying . It’s sad to see that stuff coming back, and on this side of the Mersey -albeit in the guise of a different party. In those days they failed over here as Labour- mainstream, moderate, call it what you will, was still strong enough to resist them ,even before the Kinnock speech. What I couldn’t understand is how this bunch of yahoos have been able to persuade voters to back them in wards rock solid for Labour for generations. I assumed that it was the usual thing of targeting very low turnout wards with mass canvassing - you do have to credit them, like LibDems , with the ability to turn out their loyalists. And of course that is true, but why, with Labour looking like forming the next government , riding high in the polls, and , critically , becoming highly visible and active in the traditional Tory areas in West Wirral ( I was canvassed three times by Labour in Heswall while never, as usual seeing so much as a glimpse of a Conservative), were Labour unable to counter the so called “Greens” in their heartland? Of course they knew the constituency was safe , but their base there is rotting away. Chat focussed on how Reform might well, if they can organise pick up a lot of support there. But this is stupid. Nothing about Militant! The Wirral Green Party have reasonable policies - wirral.greenparty.org.uk/ |
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hengog
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Post by hengog on Oct 20, 2024 13:40:46 GMT
No surprise to see support for these types from you. But there are decent people in Labour and it is depressing to see them apparently incapable of organising effective opposition on the ground . It is ripe for drifting into a conflict between the extremes of left and right if they continue to fail. There is zero chance of the Conservatives having any impact here . But the Reform agenda could well prove very effective in feeding on the same cocktail of deprivation and resentment the so called Greens have done with the added potential ingredient of white resentment. It’s not as if the unsavoury characters who have been elected on tiny turnouts have deep roots either.
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 20, 2024 13:47:11 GMT
No surprise to see support for these types from you. But there are decent people in Labour and it is depressing to see them apparently incapable of organising effective opposition on the ground . It is ripe for drifting into a conflict between the extremes of left and right if they continue to fail. There is zero chance of the Conservatives having any impact here . But the Reform agenda could well prove very effective in feeding on the same cocktail of deprivation and resentment the so called Greens have done with the added potential ingredient of white resentment. It’s not as if the unsavoury characters who have been elected on tiny turnouts have deep roots either. Absolute nonsense. The Green party are not Militant. As for Reform or Conservatives, that's up to you. I'm not right wing. |
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Post by edgbaston on Oct 20, 2024 14:04:13 GMT
It’s easy to vote green in these places when it’s just your ward.
‘Labour have taken you for granted’ ‘oh yes I’ll have a change, switch things up a bit locally’
In a lot of places this it where it ends and a small Green contingent on the council embeds with community politics and maybe even proposes some good ideas on budget motions. Certainly not ‘Militant Tendency’
The tipping point comes when the Greens are suddenly running or playing a major part in running the council and at that point these wards can then be won back. Until then it’s really hard even more so in government.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2024 14:24:11 GMT
No surprise to see support for these types from you. But there are decent people in Labour and it is depressing to see them apparently incapable of organising effective opposition on the ground . It is ripe for drifting into a conflict between the extremes of left and right if they continue to fail. There is zero chance of the Conservatives having any impact here . But the Reform agenda could well prove very effective in feeding on the same cocktail of deprivation and resentment the so called Greens have done with the added potential ingredient of white resentment. It’s not as if the unsavoury characters who have been elected on tiny turnouts have deep roots either. Absolute nonsense. The Green party are not Militant. As for Reform or Conservatives, that's up to you. I'm not right wing. Greens doing well in lefty places. Not a surprise. Plus Birkenhead lost its lefty MP. Mick Whitley was more Old Labour. Alison McGovern is more Blairite, really. |
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right
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Post by right on Oct 20, 2024 14:34:53 GMT
No surprise to see support for these types from you. But there are decent people in Labour and it is depressing to see them apparently incapable of organising effective opposition on the ground . It is ripe for drifting into a conflict between the extremes of left and right if they continue to fail. There is zero chance of the Conservatives having any impact here . But the Reform agenda could well prove very effective in feeding on the same cocktail of deprivation and resentment the so called Greens have done with the added potential ingredient of white resentment. It’s not as if the unsavoury characters who have been elected on tiny turnouts have deep roots either. Absolute nonsense. The Green party are not Militant. As for Reform or Conservatives, that's up to you. I'm not right wing. I think the argument is that the councillors noticed the same people in the Greens that they noticed in Militant a couple of decades ago |
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right
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Post by right on Oct 20, 2024 14:38:01 GMT
This popped up on my YouTube feed, again from Michael Heaver It's much harder for him to maintain the idea that when Reform stand then the Tories lose, so he's concentrating on the fall in the Labour vote When Reform stand the Tories win far fewer seats. That's what he's trying to gloss over so he concentrates on votes instead. He was making PRECISELY the point that the Tories didn't do well with Reform candidates two weeks ago. Which fits in with the Reform talking points and Heaver at least used to be close to Farage and for all I know still is at least ideologically. So it's very interesting that he didn't make that point now because he can't with this set of results. And (unlike you) he's not intellectually dishonest enough to argue black is white. Yes, I know I fed the troll. Sorry everyone. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Oct 20, 2024 14:39:06 GMT
It is a reasonable observation that the Green Party have become a convenient pis aller for many of those left-wingers who find the post-2020 Labour Party unpalatable or who have been expelled from Labour. This is particularly so where the local Green Party was not large to start with, and the number of Labour defectors have overwhelmed them - and Wirral would be one very good example.
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right
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Post by right on Oct 20, 2024 14:43:16 GMT
Haven't there for a long time been flavours of Trots (including the type of Pabloite Starmer's trying to pretend he never was) who were quite inclined to infiltrating the Greens? I know Militant were not in that camp. Have they changed?
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 20, 2024 14:49:44 GMT
Absolute nonsense. The Green party are not Militant. As for Reform or Conservatives, that's up to you. I'm not right wing. I think the argument is that the councillors noticed the same people in the Greens that they noticed in Militant a couple of decades ago No. |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 20, 2024 15:02:28 GMT
It is a reasonable observation that the Green Party have become a convenient pis aller for many of those left-wingers who find the post-2020 Labour Party unpalatable or who have been expelled from Labour. This is particularly so where the local Green Party was not large to start with, and the number of Labour defectors have overwhelmed them - and Wirral would be one very good example. The Green party have done well locally - particularly the Labour party in Wirral, including some council problems. I know one councillor who left Labour - she is on the left, but joined at least five years ago. Certainly I'd vote for her, rather than Alison McGovern MP! |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Oct 20, 2024 15:08:40 GMT
When Reform stand the Tories win far fewer seats. That's what he's trying to gloss over so he concentrates on votes instead. He was making PRECISELY the point that the Tories didn't do well with Reform candidates two weeks ago. Which fits in with the Reform talking points and Heaver at least used to be close to Farage and for all I know still is at least ideologically. So it's very interesting that he didn't make that point now because he can't with this set of results. And (unlike you) he's not intellectually dishonest enough to argue black is white. Yes, I know I fed the troll. Sorry everyone. If he was saying something different two weeks ago then his 'intellectual honesty" should have allowed him now to admit he was wrong. So at the very least he seems to be arguing that black is grey. None of that is surprising given that he's a propagandist rather than a serious commentator. As for being fed, it would take something far more substantial than your usual thin gruel. |
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