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Post by greatkingrat on May 31, 2024 14:35:01 GMT
So if the Conservatives do badly and Bottomley + Leigh lose, we could have Corbyn and Abbott as Father/Mother of the House!
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Post by matureleft on May 31, 2024 14:35:09 GMT
My concern is first for her health and welfare and secondly for the representation of an area that needs a fully-functioning MP. However this has been handled (and there’s probably fault on both sides plus the involvement of players with a rather wider agenda) I think a dignified retirement would have been best and that looks like not being the outcome (but we will see - without the clamour of her ‘friends’ she may feel differently).
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Post by Strontium Dog on May 31, 2024 14:41:28 GMT
The only people who ever said Abbott was barred from standing were The Times. Just smacks of Murdoch mischief-making. Apart from Abbott herself? Because she was gullible enough to believe them. |
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Post by finsobruce on May 31, 2024 14:56:53 GMT
Starmer has apparently said Abbott will be allowed to stand for Labour. I thought it was nothing to do with him? Maybe he's been seconded to the personnel dept?  |
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Post by edgbaston on May 31, 2024 15:03:13 GMT
I thought it was nothing to do with him? Maybe he's been seconded to the personnel dept? More likely he’s had to step in because party staff weren’t doing their jobs and causing immense damage. If you want to put that as ‘seconded’ then I guess yes |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on May 31, 2024 20:33:39 GMT
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on May 31, 2024 21:20:18 GMT
Apart from Abbott herself? Because she was gullible enough to believe them. She probably got more steer from Labour HQ than anyone on this board Face it, Starmer blinked |
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Post by norflondon on Jun 1, 2024 0:09:08 GMT
The decision is a slap in the face for a certain part of the community.
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Post by batman on Jun 1, 2024 3:44:02 GMT
The decision is a slap in the face for a certain part of the community. we all know what you mean and I don’t see it that way. The fact that she was suspended in the first place shows that Labour does not tolerate the notion that Jews are not an ethnicity and therefore do not generally suffer from racism. It is also extremely obvious that Roma and Sinti people are on the end of racism throughout much of the world too and these two peoples were singled out for extermination within the lifetimes still of many people. There was no widespread demand within the Jewish community that she be barred for the general election although obviously some would have wanted that to happen. Most Jewish people are relieved that Labour takes antisemitism seriously as was clearly evidenced by the rupture it has ended up having with its former leader, under whose leadership Antisemitism flourished within the party to a worryingly large extent. This decision is not a slap in the face for Jews , Roma, Sinti or Irish people; failure to take action against in the first place would have been. |
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Post by John Chanin on Jun 1, 2024 7:09:58 GMT
The decision is a slap in the face for a certain part of the community. we all know what you mean and I don’t see it that way. The fact that she was suspended in the first place shows that Labour does not tolerate the notion that Jews are not an ethnicity and therefore do not generally suffer from racism. It is also extremely obvious that Roma and Sinti people are on the end of racism throughout much of the world too and these two peoples were singled out for extermination within the lifetimes still of many people. There was no widespread demand within the Jewish community that she be barred for the general election although obviously some would have wanted that to happen. Most Jewish people are relieved that Labour takes antisemitism seriously as was clearly evidenced by the rupture it has ended up having with its former leader, under whose leadership Antisemitism flourished within the party to a worryingly large extent. This decision is not a slap in the face for Jews , Roma, Sinti or Irish people; failure to take action against in the first place would have been. I could write a long essay on this, and maybe one day I will, but for now I will simply repeat that to say that racism and anti-semitism are qualititively different things, is a perfectly respectable position. It is not racist and therefore I have a fundamental disagreement with Barnaby on this. And it is certainly not anti-semitic to hold this view. People sensitive to one form of discrimination tend to also be sensitive to others. |
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Post by batman on Jun 1, 2024 7:45:09 GMT
So why were we industrially slaughtered in WWII as were Roma people? Because we went to synagogues? If so why did Hitler kill non-religious Jews too? The answer is simple enough; he attempted to exterminate us as a people, as an ethnic group. It was racism not dislike of Judaism as a religion. To say that racism & antisemitism are qualitatively different is not necessarily antisemitic, but I believe it is mistaken. Not all racism is antisemitism, but all antisemitism is racism.
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Jun 1, 2024 9:32:47 GMT
So why were we industrially slaughtered in WWII as were Roma people? Because we went to synagogues? If so why did Hitler kill non-religious Jews too? The answer is simple enough; he attempted to exterminate us as a people, as an ethnic group. It was racism not dislike of Judaism as a religion. To say that racism & antisemitism are qualitatively different is not necessarily antisemitic, but I believe it is mistaken. Not all racism is antisemitism, but all antisemitism is racism. I don't think anyone, aside from a few cranks, think that Hitler's views on Jewish people was based on anything other than race. It is immediately obvious to anyone studying that subject that race was absolutely fundamental to Nazi ideology while religious views were not of any great importance. The mistake I think that you and many others make is to assume that all antisemitism is motivated by the same things that motivated Hitler. I agree with John Chanin that racism and antisemitism are not always the same thing and that Abbott was arguably correct, arguably wrong, but certainly not antisemitic. She was typically clumsy and insensitive and any high profile political figure should think twice before discussing such matters and only do so with extreme care. I realise that I am highly likely to cause offense with the following comments but will do so anyway. While I fully understand the extreme sensitivity of many Jewish people to anything that is perceived as antisemitic I don't think it is healthy. Getting worked up by silly cartoons, which may or may not be motivated by antisemitism, is a waste of time and upsetting yourself needlessly. Arguing that it is antisemitic to simply disagree with Jewish people over what is antisemitic it is intellectually risible. These things have no equivalence whatsoever with the beliefs and actions of the Nazis. What you are doing here is putting the bar for antisemitism so low that there will always be things that will defined as antisemitism. It serves the interests of a small number of people, and I certainly don't include you, to do so but I don't think it serves the interests of the vast majority of Jewish people to continuously tell them that every minor slight is a result of some appalling deep rooted hatred of them. None of this is to minimise genuine antisemitic abuse which certainly does exit and which I deplore. I have no reason to doubt that you and many other Jewish people have been on the receiving end of antisemitic abuse. Furthermore I don't doubt that in some cases this is motivated by racial hatred of Jewish people. I simply don't think it is either helpful or healthy to conflate this abuse with everything that I sometimes see described as antisemitic. |
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Post by batman on Jun 1, 2024 9:59:28 GMT
Some of that is reasonable though I don’t agree with it all. Of course sometimes there is overreaction and incorrect citation of antisemitism. The CAA and Labour Against Antisemitism (not in any way to be confused with the group I founded) have frequently done so. I try to be selective and not get it wrong but obviously I may do so sometimes. Jews themselves sometimes mock themselves for this; there’s a famous Jewish joke which goes; a drunken Jew staggering down the street bumps into a lamppost. “Anti-Semite” he slurs to the lamppost.
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hengog
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Post by hengog on Jun 1, 2024 10:06:44 GMT
Getting outwitted by Diane Abbott isn’t a great look.
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Post by batman on Jun 1, 2024 10:29:34 GMT
Stopping her from standing altogether would have been a worse one. Labour's dealt with this very badly, and in the end no outcome would have been totally satisfactory, but the decision to allow her to stand will allow a line to be drawn under it more quickly.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jun 1, 2024 15:29:07 GMT
The whole saga here makes me think that one of Starmer's goals in the coming months should be about trying to get more control over the "staffed" part of the party. He will have an opportunity, as I suspect a significant part of the party's staff might leave to take jobs within the various ministerial political staff/Downing Street.
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Post by norflondon on Jun 1, 2024 21:45:31 GMT
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2024 6:14:55 GMT
The plot thickens. Wasn't Starmer thinking about abolishing the House of Lords?
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Post by matureleft on Jun 2, 2024 7:50:35 GMT
The plot thickens. Wasn't Starmer thinking about abolishing the House of Lords? I’m afraid such offers are common, from both big parties, in these circumstances (i.e. where a person is occupying a safe seat but has no likelihood of being of particular use in government). Of course it takes two to tango - the person receiving the offer must be willing and a peerage doesn’t appeal to all. The other offer that used to be made was of some non-executive role within the gift of either the government (or, in the case of the Tories, the party through business connections). That thankfully seems less common nowadays. I don’t know the number of retiring MPs (as opposed to someone losing their seat) who end up in the Lords but there are plenty. |
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Post by batman on Jun 2, 2024 8:24:03 GMT
Has she said anything about this? I'm not convinced of the veracity of this at all.
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