right
Conservative
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Post by right on May 28, 2024 19:45:03 GMT
You suggested this about Corbyn before but it’s not credible and would be so underhand it would largely take away any moral high ground argument Why would it be underhand for the likes of John Mcdonell to say in 10 days time that he hoped to see Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn re-elected? Starmer and the NEC are in no position to complain - though it might generate a row and running story which the leadership might wish to avoid. Isn't McDonnell leaving, so close of nominations would be no barrier to him. I also suspect this is wishful thinking. The Campaign Group MPs who campaign for Abbott could be suspended at 10PM on election day and if there's a solid Labour majority and there's little reason for them to be brought back, making a seat available for a loyalist. And importantly this would play to Starmer's plan. I also suspect McDonnell has lost patience with Abbott. McDonnell is a grafter and Abbott certainly is not. |
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Post by johnloony on May 28, 2024 19:46:30 GMT
I am not aware of any evidence that Luke has intentions of standing for Parliament. I'm going off what Michael Crick is saying Is that list accurate? I knew Gurinder Josan at university. I’m not aware of him having been selected as candidate, and he’s not mentioned in the Smethwick thread |
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Post by kevinf on May 28, 2024 19:48:31 GMT
Why would it be underhand for the likes of John Mcdonell to say in 10 days time that he hoped to see Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn re-elected? Starmer and the NEC are in no position to complain - though it might generate a row and running story which the leadership might wish to avoid. Isn't McDonnell leaving, so close of nominations would be no barrier to him. I also suspect this is wishful thinking. The Campaign Group MPs who campaign for Abbott could be suspended at 10PM on election day and if there's a solid Labour majority and there's little reason for them to be brought back, making a seat available for a loyalist. And importantly this would play to Starmer's plan. I also suspect McDonnell has lost patience with Abbott. McDonnell is a grafter and Abbott certainly is not. John McDonnell isn’t going anywhere. |
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graham
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Post by graham on May 28, 2024 19:55:28 GMT
Why would it be underhand for the likes of John Mcdonell to say in 10 days time that he hoped to see Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn re-elected? Starmer and the NEC are in no position to complain - though it might generate a row and running story which the leadership might wish to avoid. Isn't McDonnell leaving, so close of nominations would be no barrier to him. I also suspect this is wishful thinking. The Campaign Group MPs who campaign for Abbott could be suspended at 10PM on election day and if there's a solid Labour majority and there's little reason for them to be brought back, making a seat available for a loyalist. And importantly this would play to Starmer's plan. I also suspect McDonnell has lost patience with Abbott. McDonnell is a grafter and Abbott certainly is not. I don't think McDonnell is standing down!
As for suspending them when polls close , that would not prevent them from being re-elected and sitting as Independents if necessary. Obviously a lot would depend on the final parliamentary arithmetic, but if the polls narrow and we ended up with a Hung Parliament or a small Labour majority it probably would not suit the leadership to remove the Whip from those MPs - indeed there might be a possibility of it being restored to both Abbott and Corbyn.Circa 30 Campaign Group MPs could yet have a fair bit of leverage.
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on May 28, 2024 19:57:34 GMT
Isn't McDonnell leaving, so close of nominations would be no barrier to him. I also suspect this is wishful thinking. The Campaign Group MPs who campaign for Abbott could be suspended at 10PM on election day and if there's a solid Labour majority and there's little reason for them to be brought back, making a seat available for a loyalist. And importantly this would play to Starmer's plan. I also suspect McDonnell has lost patience with Abbott. McDonnell is a grafter and Abbott certainly is not. I don't think McDonnell is standing down!
As for suspending them when polls close , that would not prevent them from being re-elected and sitting as Independents if necessary. Obviously a lot would depend on the final parliamentary arithmetic, but if the polls narrow and we ended up with a Hung Parliament or a small Labour majority it probably would not suit the leadership to remove the Whip from those MPs - indeed there might be a possibility of it being restored to both Abbott and Corbyn.Circa 30 Campaign Group MPs could yet have a fair bit of leverage.
And how would the wider party feel about them playing those games when Labour are about to finally get the Tories out after 14 years? |
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graham
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Post by graham on May 28, 2024 20:07:05 GMT
I don't think McDonnell is standing down!
As for suspending them when polls close , that would not prevent them from being re-elected and sitting as Independents if necessary. Obviously a lot would depend on the final parliamentary arithmetic, but if the polls narrow and we ended up with a Hung Parliament or a small Labour majority it probably would not suit the leadership to remove the Whip from those MPs - indeed there might be a possibility of it being restored to both Abbott and Corbyn.Circa 30 Campaign Group MPs could yet have a fair bit of leverage.
And how would the wider party feel about them playing those games when Labour are about to finally get the Tories out after 14 years? But who is to be blamed for that?There is now a great deal of resentment and personal bitterness floating around. Much of that has been generated by Starmer abandoning the pledges made to party members early in 2020. In itself that has undermined the legitimacy of his position as leader with many feeling little or no loyalty towards him. That serious offence has now been compounded by two'of ther own' effectively being frozen out and being thrown to the wolves. It can be no surprise that those treated in this way may wish to fight back. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on May 28, 2024 21:29:31 GMT
From a forum protection point of view can be please be careful about suggesting racist motives and make sure there’s evidence of it if doing so, particularly when it references individuals ie Starmer This might be denying black people the right to challenge racism. The report ordered by Starmer, by a QC into Labour stated there was a "hierarchy of racism" found in the Labour Party. Labour Black Socialists say: "STATEMENT: We said all along that Keir Starmer has been blocking Diane Abbott's reinstatement. He has lied to the media, his MPs, @uklabour members & the people. His treatment of @hackneyabbott is just as heinous as Frank Hester's abusive, racist threats to Diane." Having stated that I'd agree direct accusations of racism of any kind need to be considered meticulously with a heavy heart. A bit of yogic flying might lighten your heart and lift your mood out of rancid nonsense and into normality? |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on May 28, 2024 21:58:40 GMT
I see that we have a lot of two plus two equals six chatter here. Otherwise known as Witham maths. Yet according to some Tories, Abbott once struggling with figures live on air comes up constantly on the doorstep.  |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 28, 2024 22:12:26 GMT
I see that we have a lot of two plus two equals six chatter here. Otherwise known as Witham maths. Yet according to some Tories, Abbott once struggling with figures live on air comes up constantly on the doorstep. I suspect they're not lying, and that Conservative canvassers are likely to meet a certain type of voter who is happy to bring up Diane Abbott as a special example of a politician they disapprove of. |
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batman
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Post by batman on May 28, 2024 22:25:08 GMT
antisemitism is not always straightforward. Of course some manifestations of it are, but many people do need to be educated in what constitutes antisemitism and why. Including some people in this thread (obviously not yourself, of course) who love talking over the Jewish community & telling us what we ought to think is antisemitic & what we ought not to. But it is not antisemitic to suggest that the extreme Rightwing settlers illegally on the West Bank are little better than Einsatzgruppen given how they are torching the homes of Palestinians whilst at the same time causing injury and death to local residents. Some members of Netayahu's government are no better than Nazis. it is generally better to use comparisons with fascists rather than Nazis. Although I hate the extreme right-wing settlers every bit as much as you do. Nazism is a specific ideology based on blaming all the world's evils on the Jewish people. Fascism generally is not. |
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batman
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Post by batman on May 28, 2024 22:28:04 GMT
Isn't McDonnell leaving, so close of nominations would be no barrier to him. I also suspect this is wishful thinking. The Campaign Group MPs who campaign for Abbott could be suspended at 10PM on election day and if there's a solid Labour majority and there's little reason for them to be brought back, making a seat available for a loyalist. And importantly this would play to Starmer's plan. I also suspect McDonnell has lost patience with Abbott. McDonnell is a grafter and Abbott certainly is not. I don't think McDonnell is standing down!
As for suspending them when polls close , that would not prevent them from being re-elected and sitting as Independents if necessary. Obviously a lot would depend on the final parliamentary arithmetic, but if the polls narrow and we ended up with a Hung Parliament or a small Labour majority it probably would not suit the leadership to remove the Whip from those MPs - indeed there might be a possibility of it being restored to both Abbott and Corbyn.Circa 30 Campaign Group MPs could yet have a fair bit of leverage.
there is not the remotest possibility of Corbyn getting the Labour Whip back. Diane Abbott has done, basically, what was asked of her since her suspension. Corbyn has consistently refused to do so over 4 years. I don't think Diane Abbott would win the seat anyway if she were to stand as an independent. I hope she doesn't. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on May 28, 2024 22:34:30 GMT
Otherwise known as Witham maths. Yet according to some Tories, Abbott once struggling with figures live on air comes up constantly on the doorstep. I suspect they're not lying, and that Conservative canvassers are likely to meet a certain type of voter who is happy to bring up Diane Abbott as a special example of a politician they disapprove of. True, in key defences if they're actively prompting the kind of people who would answer the door to someone in a blue rosette to think of a politician they dislike, then I suspect Abbott's is a name which crops up a lot. But the idea that scores of swing voters are spontaneously remembering that incident from years ago beggars belief - and yet that is how Tory candidates will then report what happened. FWIW I do think she was overpromoted while in that position but her shrill and scatterbrained nature in recent years sort of reminds me of my own Mum so the continued lambasting of her over it can sometimes feel rather unfair. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on May 28, 2024 22:37:09 GMT
But it is not antisemitic to suggest that the extreme Rightwing settlers illegally on the West Bank are little better than Einsatzgruppen given how they are torching the homes of Palestinians whilst at the same time causing injury and death to local residents. Some members of Netayahu's government are no better than Nazis. it is generally better to use comparisons with fascists rather than Nazis. Although I hate the extreme right-wing settlers every bit as much as you do. Nazism is a specific ideology based on blaming all the world's evils on the Jewish people. Fascism generally is not. That is very true. There was next to no evidence of anti-semitism in Fascist Italy before Mussolini was forced into subserviance to Hitler in the latter stages of the War. Hitler certainly combined fascism with anti-semitism to produce his ideology. Was there any evidence of anti-semitism in other right-wing authoritarian regimes of that era such as those of Salazar and Franco? |
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graham
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Post by graham on May 28, 2024 22:40:49 GMT
I don't think McDonnell is standing down!
As for suspending them when polls close , that would not prevent them from being re-elected and sitting as Independents if necessary. Obviously a lot would depend on the final parliamentary arithmetic, but if the polls narrow and we ended up with a Hung Parliament or a small Labour majority it probably would not suit the leadership to remove the Whip from those MPs - indeed there might be a possibility of it being restored to both Abbott and Corbyn.Circa 30 Campaign Group MPs could yet have a fair bit of leverage.
there is not the remotest possibility of Corbyn getting the Labour Whip back. Diane Abbott has done, basically, what was asked of her since her suspension. Corbyn has consistently refused to do so over 4 years. I don't think Diane Abbott would win the seat anyway if she were to stand as an independent. I hope she doesn't. Well Stafford Cripps was expelled before World War 2 - as I believe was Aneurin Bevan. Both were eventually readmitted - as more recently was Luciana Berger who stood as a LD candidate against Labour in 2019. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on May 28, 2024 22:44:13 GMT
Was there any evidence of anti-semitism in other right-wing authoritarian regimes of that era such as those of Salazar and Franco? No and yes |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 28, 2024 23:12:24 GMT
it is generally better to use comparisons with fascists rather than Nazis. Although I hate the extreme right-wing settlers every bit as much as you do. Nazism is a specific ideology based on blaming all the world's evils on the Jewish people. Fascism generally is not. That is very true. There was next to no evidence of anti-semitism in Fascist Italy before Mussolini was forced into subserviance to Hitler in the latter stages of the War. Hitler certainly combined fascism with anti-semitism to produce his ideology. Was there any evidence of anti-semitism in other right-wing authoritarian regimes of that era such as those of Salazar and Franco? I think that is a little over-generous to the Italian Fascists. They certainly did not put anti-Semitism to the fore and I doubt they'd ever have put legal discrimination against Jews, let alone slaughtering them, as a priority but for Nazi influence. Still, anti-Semitism of a sort that would be condemned as disgusting today was prevalent across Europe and was pretty much mainstream in Fascism. The connection between the Catholic Church and anti-Semitism that is so obvious in France was, I think, significant in Fascist Italy (and I think in the other regimes you mention.) We tend to think of Germany as very different, but of course Hitler was an Austrian and Nazism was very strong in Bavaria. |
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Post by johnloony on May 29, 2024 0:30:03 GMT
it is generally better to use comparisons with fascists rather than Nazis. Although I hate the extreme right-wing settlers every bit as much as you do. Nazism is a specific ideology based on blaming all the world's evils on the Jewish people. Fascism generally is not. That is very true. There was next to no evidence of anti-semitism in Fascist Italy before Mussolini was forced into subserviance to Hitler in the latter stages of the War. Hitler certainly combined fascism with anti-semitism to produce his ideology. Was there any evidence of anti-semitism in other right-wing authoritarian regimes of that era such as those of Salazar and Franco? Under Franco there was a bit of anti-Freemason policy almost as a proxy for anti-Semitism, because there were hardly any Jewish people in Spain anyway. The Catholic church in Spain was very anti-semitic anyway, and to some extent they conflated it into a “Jewish-Freemason-Bolshevik” conspiracy. (Source: The Spanish Holocaust” by Paul Preston) Salazar’s Portugal: not in the slightest. Portugal kept its borders open to refugees after 1939 (unlike other neutral countries) and Salazar actively denounced German anti-semitism. (Source: “Salazar” by Tom Gallagher) |
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right
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Post by right on May 29, 2024 6:15:32 GMT
That is very true. There was next to no evidence of anti-semitism in Fascist Italy before Mussolini was forced into subserviance to Hitler in the latter stages of the War. Hitler certainly combined fascism with anti-semitism to produce his ideology. Was there any evidence of anti-semitism in other right-wing authoritarian regimes of that era such as those of Salazar and Franco? Under Franco there was a bit of anti-Freemason policy almost as a proxy for anti-Semitism, because there were hardly any Jewish people in Spain anyway. The Catholic church in Spain was very anti-semitic anyway, and to some extent they conflated it into a “Jewish-Freemason-Bolshevik” conspiracy. (Source: The Spanish Holocaust” by Paul Preston) Salazar’s Portugal: not in the slightest. Portugal kept its borders open to refugees after 1939 (unlike other neutral countries) and Salazar actively denounced German anti-semitism. (Source: “Salazar” by Tom Gallagher) Latin Freemasonry was particularly hostile to the Catholic church in a way that English speakers find hard to grasp. And the Catholic church repaid in kind. Supposed links to Judaism and Bolshevism weren't needed to fuel the hostility at least within the church, although linking together all the ills of the modern world (with Judaism very much the lesser threat) was certainly a much used propaganda trope. Add to that totalitarian suspicion of any secrets based organisation that couldn't be grafted on to the state. Mussolini's effective suppression of the mafia was done for the same reasons Communists and Nazis outlawed Freemasonry. Franco certainly was casually anti Semitic and no doubt that was a social attitude also common with his supporters and also in the Spanish church hierarchy - but anti freemasonry was like anti Bolshevism a free standing hostility. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on May 29, 2024 6:39:55 GMT
Abbott has confirmed she has been banned from standing.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on May 29, 2024 7:34:49 GMT
This has been badly managed by all sides.
Political egos are too big.
At this point it looks a like a telenovela.
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