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Post by norflondon on Jun 3, 2024 10:51:24 GMT
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 3, 2024 11:11:37 GMT
Peter Oborne has gone full on swivel eyed far-left hasn't he. Should have put this in the Peak Guardian etc thread..
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 3, 2024 11:13:29 GMT
Vim was a useful word. I'd forgotten it existed and may have try to use it more (i.e. at all) It used to be the name of a household cleaning product. I am old enough to remember it well. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Jun 3, 2024 12:18:07 GMT
Peter Oborne has gone full on swivel eyed far-left hasn't he. Should have put this in the Peak Guardian etc thread.. It's sad really. I used to find him an interesting read from an un-orthodox and slightly populist "classical liberal" angle; but about 10 years ago he started to get locked into a kind of orientalist Islamophilia, and then re-ordered *all* his views to fit that single paradigm - with predictable results  |
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Post by batman on Jun 3, 2024 12:39:50 GMT
The magazine was originally called Vim.
I imagine people read it with vigour.
Vim was a useful word. I'd forgotten it existed and may have try to use it more (i.e. at all) it comes in useful for Scrabble |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jun 3, 2024 12:45:48 GMT
I remember a third hand story (so that's your barometer of truth) of a now ex Conservative MP canvassing well before he became an MP or indeed a candidate with some slightly younger undergraduates in the late 80s early 90s He was waiting to see if anyone was at his door and looked over to his canvassing neighbour and had a double take as Harold Wilson answered the door. "Will you be voting Conservative in this election" "I'm Harold Wilson" "Yes, sir that's what it says on our canvassing sheet. Will you be voting Coservative?" Wilson lived in Ashley Gardens opposite Westminster Cathedral, and I can well assume some CLWCA Young Conservative type going round in the late 80s or early 90s might well have not known who he was. Unfortunately by this time Wilson didn't entirely know who he was either. Unlikely to be later than the 1987 GE - by 1992 Wilson was gaga - but as a member of the House of Lords he did not have a vote anyway - unless the story relates to a local election! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2024 12:47:52 GMT
Abuse, devoid of evidence or logic. I do wonder whether like Reform, the Independent effort and end result will actually be disappointing. This is because I am aware of a number of people who months ago were all saying "we will be in Islington canvassing for Jeremy if he stands!" but when push comes to shove, they are staying in their constituencies and canvassing for their Lab PPC. It will be disappointing because supporters of these independents have, at best, an extremely tenuous connection to reality, and many no connection at all. This has led them to expect far more than was ever possible |
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Post by adlai52 on Jun 3, 2024 13:30:09 GMT
Peter Oborne has gone full on swivel eyed far-left hasn't he. Should have put this in the Peak Guardian etc thread.. It's sad really. I used to find him an interesting read from an un-orthodox and slightly populist "classical liberal" angle; but about 10 years ago he started to get locked into a kind of orientalist Islamophilia, and then re-ordered *all* his views to fit that single paradigm - with predictable results The Willy Dalrymple school, owes a lot to classic old school Arabism that takes no account of how the Middle East and the role of Islam has changed since WW2. |
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Post by norflondon on Jun 3, 2024 13:41:57 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future.
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kevinf
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Post by kevinf on Jun 3, 2024 14:02:53 GMT
Abuse, devoid of evidence or logic. The evidence is surely how she has behaved in the past week. A lot of us who are mostly mainstream Labour felt some sympathy when she was potted, maybe not so much now. I tend to judge these things partly on how I would have reacted if I had been treated the same way. I think I’d have reacted even more angrily. Though as I’m not on Twitter X, it wouldn’t have happened to me. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Jun 3, 2024 14:04:44 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future. I don't give a damn how important blasphemy laws and all the other crap are to Muslims - they aren't importing them into my country while I'm still breathing. |
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Post by rcronald on Jun 3, 2024 14:08:05 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future. while I'm still breathing. We are talking about Islam here… |
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right
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Post by right on Jun 3, 2024 14:31:38 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future. I don't give a damn how important blasphemy laws and all the other crap are to Muslims - they aren't importing them into my country while I'm still breathing. I'd be interested to hear how you could avoid that without at the least stopping the importation of Muslims, and if you're open to stopping immigration I'd be interested in seeing how you could remain outside the orbit of the right of the Conservative party. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 3, 2024 14:41:13 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future. I don't give a damn how important blasphemy laws and all the other crap are to Muslims - they aren't importing them into my country while I'm still breathing. I'm with you on that, but for precisely that reason norflondon's point stands. There was a time when South Asian (Indian) Islam was notably moderate, due to flourishing in an environment where Muslims were surrounded by Hindus and others, possibly the more so for being themselves generally privileged relative to the others. (There's an amusing passage in Dalrymple's White Mughals where he quotes the views of a Persian visitor to Hyderabad, in which the latter is utterly appalled by the local Muslims, regarding them as disgracefully lax.) Post 1947 it has clearly become ever more radical in Pakistan and (perhaps to a lesser extent?) Bangladesh and has been allowed to go the same way in the UK, rather than being insulated from that trend by the trends towards social liberalism in the UK, with most Brits taking no notice whatsoever. I know that at least some British Asians blame the influence of Saudi money on organised Islam here, but whatever the cause it would be worth trying to reverse that process. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Jun 3, 2024 14:48:23 GMT
I don't give a damn how important blasphemy laws and all the other crap are to Muslims - they aren't importing them into my country while I'm still breathing. I'd be interested to hear how you could avoid that without at the least stopping the importation of Muslims, and if you're open to stopping immigration I'd be interested in seeing how you could remain outside the orbit of the right of the Conservative party. I'm a big supporter of immigration (though not at 500k per year!) but I would have made support for British values *mandatory* from the start - we never should be accepting *anyone* who is actively opposed to British values, or hates what we are, or who moves here with the intent of immediately trying to make this country more like the country they just left. As it happens, I think much of the problem in Islamic communities actually arises from 2nd-gen families "re-discovering" the very values their parents often fled from - and that's a much more tricky problem as 2nd-gen people are de-jure British. I would certainly have introduced a much more robust education of British values into schooling (more like the French attitude) and policing (contemporary police kowtowing to Islam make me furious) as soon as it became obvious that immigration was going to be very high for a long time; and I would bring back the "Primary Purpose" rule - as I've been saying for a long time: The left needs to wake up about the social problems this 'stream' is causing, and to propose solutions before the right does. It's time to admit that that abolition of the "Primary Purpose Rule" in 1997 (one of Labour's first actions in government) was almost certainly a real mistake. The rule could have done with some reform to make it a bit more caring and flexible, but ultimately the proposition that anyone should automatically be allowed to live here permanently by marrying someone is daft and open to abuse. It's not right-wing to think this either: PS I very much look forward to the results of the influx of Hong Kong immigrants into the UK. Hong Kong is wonderful and very compatible with British values in general, and their distinctiveness will be added to our own </borg>. |
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Post by rcronald on Jun 3, 2024 15:00:19 GMT
I'd be interested to hear how you could avoid that without at the least stopping the importation of Muslims, and if you're open to stopping immigration I'd be interested in seeing how you could remain outside the orbit of the right of the Conservative party. PS I very much look forward to the results of the influx of Hong Kong immigrants into the UK. Hong Kong is wonderful and very compatible with British values in general, and their distinctiveness will be added to our own </borg>. I fully expect that the UK will somehow lose the immigrants from Hong Kong to Australia, Canada, and America, and that the country will somehow end up with Rohingyas, and Uyghurs instead… |
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right
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Post by right on Jun 3, 2024 15:07:49 GMT
PS I very much look forward to the results of the influx of Hong Kong immigrants into the UK. Hong Kong is wonderful and very compatible with British values in general, and their distinctiveness will be added to our own </borg>. I fully expect that the UK will somehow lose the immigrants from Hong Kong to Australia, Canada, and America, and that the country will somehow end up with Rohingyas, and Uyghurs instead… Admittedly limited experience on this, but have been rather surprised at how pro Chinese government HK immigrants I've known are. Less so with SE Asian diaspora. The sample size is small so it's more anecdote than data, but it may be an interesting challenge if we do support the US in a clash with China |
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Post by rcronald on Jun 3, 2024 15:13:31 GMT
I fully expect that the UK will somehow lose the immigrants from Hong Kong to Australia, Canada, and America, and that the country will somehow end up with Rohingyas, and Uyghurs instead… Admittedly limited experience on this, but have been rather surprised at how pro Chinese government HK immigrants I've known are. Less so with SE Asian diaspora. The sample size is small so it's more anecdote than data, but it may be an interesting challenge if we do support the US in a clash with China Would probably be a good fit in Australia… |
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Post by islington on Jun 3, 2024 15:21:08 GMT
I'd be interested to hear how you could avoid that without at the least stopping the importation of Muslims, and if you're open to stopping immigration I'd be interested in seeing how you could remain outside the orbit of the right of the Conservative party. I'm a big supporter of immigration (though not at 500k per year!) but I would have made support for British values *mandatory* from the start I would certainly have introduced a much more robust education of British values into schooling (more like the French attitude) Because that's been such a brilliant success, obviously. |
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hengog
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Post by hengog on Jun 3, 2024 15:26:33 GMT
Whatever the arcane, academic arguments are the Muslim UK population is expected to reach thirteen millions in 2050. That's approximately one in five UK citizens. Views towards British Muslims and what's important to them must surely be examined, and in a lot of cases revised, in the not too distant future. As the numbers rise and , as seems quite possible if not likely, enough Muslims continue to behave as a ‘block’ , motivated overwhelmingly by what they believe to be in the interest of fellow Muslims, here and abroad, the electoral equivalent of Newton’s third law is likely to apply , with similar ( at least) numbers of non Muslims voting on the basis of who is prepared to stand up to them. This will not be a good thing , but probably better than the alternative and anyway inevitable. Whether a less naive attitude to multiculturalism may have produced a healthier more integrated society , who can say? |
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