maxque
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Post by maxque on Jun 1, 2024 15:45:45 GMT
The message ought to be if you are going to criticise Israeli policy don’t use antisemitic tropes and don’t share or like things that you haven’t read carefully for that. But the other message is recognise the limits of UK reach. Nobody listens to our opinions on this and we have no leverage on the subject. Fine to have a view but if it dominates your agenda then how are you going to serve as an MP (or a councillor)? That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... |
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Post by matureleft on Jun 1, 2024 15:51:52 GMT
The message ought to be if you are going to criticise Israeli policy don’t use antisemitic tropes and don’t share or like things that you haven’t read carefully for that. But the other message is recognise the limits of UK reach. Nobody listens to our opinions on this and we have no leverage on the subject. Fine to have a view but if it dominates your agenda then how are you going to serve as an MP (or a councillor)? That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... Amounting to what? The only state with genuine leverage is the USA. I didn’t say that we can’t make ineffectual gestures. I have a history of being less interested in gesture politics than many. I accept that sometimes they must be done but it’s very dishonest to oversell their meaning. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2024 15:57:16 GMT
That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... I didn’t say that we can’t make ineffectual gestures. I have a history of being less interested in gesture politics than many. I accept that sometimes they must be done but it’s very dishonest to oversell their meaning. Playing devil's advocate, isn't this argument often also used about climate change? I.e. there's no point us doing anything because others play a bigger role? |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Jun 1, 2024 16:01:14 GMT
Not comparable because unlike with climate-change, states other than the US really do have zero impact on Israel.
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right
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Post by right on Jun 1, 2024 16:02:53 GMT
That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... Amounting to what? The only state with genuine leverage is the USA. I didn’t say that we can’t make ineffectual gestures. I have a history of being less interested in gesture politics than many. I accept that sometimes they must be done but it’s very dishonest to oversell their meaning. We provide quite a lot of diplomatic cover for the US including on Israel. If the US became Israel's only backer (although this would also need at least Germany to distance themselves as well) then it could put America in a terribly awkward place and that could seep into domestic US politics in the same way With Africa did. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jun 1, 2024 16:06:01 GMT
Not comparable because unlike with climate-change, states other than the US really do have zero impact on Israel. 42 million pounds of weapons and ammo (2022 number) is not nothing. |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Jun 1, 2024 16:28:08 GMT
But too late to deselect or replace them! Some will likely be entering their last Parliament and not be too bothered about such a prospect. If the polls tighten, Starmer might yet need their votes. Expulsions are often not permanent - eg Aneurin Bevan - Stafford Cripps - and Luciana Berger. No , really? I strongly suspect that they might not decide to dance to your tune though.
Dianne Abbott getting herself deliberately expelled just after fighting against deselection seems highly unlikely you’d think |
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 1, 2024 16:30:49 GMT
The message ought to be if you are going to criticise Israeli policy don’t use antisemitic tropes and don’t share or like things that you haven’t read carefully for that. But the other message is recognise the limits of UK reach. Nobody listens to our opinions on this and we have no leverage on the subject. Fine to have a view but if it dominates your agenda then how are you going to serve as an MP (or a councillor)? That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... Why on earth would it want to do any such thing about any of those? |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Jun 1, 2024 16:30:53 GMT
If Shaheen stands as IND yes, IDS will win probably Lab party office in Chingford paint sprayed overnight "Isreal (sic) lobby work for us" Deplorable and unacceptable. Let me finish the job.' Hopefully Corbyn would address any campaign rally organised in her support. Nominations close in six days time . When that deadline has passed , perhaps Diane Abbott and other Campaign members will come out in her support. If we go down that road surely more credit should go to the 2017 Labour candidate who cut IDS’s majority into marginal status in the first place? |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jun 1, 2024 16:46:26 GMT
That is very false. UK could block weapon exports to Israel, block Israeli imports, recall the ambassador, use trade sanctions, etc... Why on earth would it want to do any such thing about any of those? I wouldn't do any of these but the first one, and the first one is partly motivated by me generally opposed to weapon exports (each country should be able to manufacture their weapons by themselves in case of a war). |
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Post by batman on Jun 1, 2024 16:46:45 GMT
As you know, only if they wanted to be expelled themselves. But too late to deselect or replace them! Some will likely be entering their last Parliament and not be too bothered about such a prospect. If the polls tighten, Starmer might yet need their votes. Expulsions are often not permanent - eg Aneurin Bevan - Stafford Cripps - and Luciana Berger. even by your standards this is the most incredible bollocks. |
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Jun 1, 2024 17:49:49 GMT
As you know, only if they wanted to be expelled themselves. But too late to deselect or replace them! Some will likely be entering their last Parliament and not be too bothered about such a prospect. If the polls tighten, Starmer might yet need their votes. Expulsions are often not permanent - eg Aneurin Bevan - Stafford Cripps - and Luciana Berger. If the very hypothetical situation you are suggesting should arise after the general election, then the precedents you mention (two of them now over 80 years old) will certainly not be followed (at least within a period shorter than several years). Rather than having to depend on the votes of defectors, Starmer would either call another general election later this year (so making their last parliament a distinctly short one) or leave it to other parties to see if they could form a government without Labour support. (And if you don't believe that, you have obviously never heard of Luke Akehurst). |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jun 2, 2024 0:20:08 GMT
But too late to deselect or replace them! Some will likely be entering their last Parliament and not be too bothered about such a prospect. If the polls tighten, Starmer might yet need their votes. Expulsions are often not permanent - eg Aneurin Bevan - Stafford Cripps - and Luciana Berger. If the very hypothetical situation you are suggesting should arise after the general election, then the precedents you mention (two of them now over 80 years old) will certainly not be followed (at least within a period shorter than several years). Rather than having to depend on the votes of defectors, Starmer would either call another general election later this year (so making their last parliament a distinctly short one) or leave it to other parties to see if they could form a government without Labour support. (And if you don't believe that, you have obviously never heard of Luke Akehurst). Luke Akehurst ? I believe some have referred to hin as Netenyahu's stoodge |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 2, 2024 6:40:34 GMT
As you know, only if they wanted to be expelled themselves. But too late to deselect or replace them! Some will likely be entering their last Parliament and not be too bothered about such a prospect. If the polls tighten, Starmer might yet need their votes. Expulsions are often not permanent - eg Aneurin Bevan - Stafford Cripps - and Luciana Berger.
What planet are you on?
The minimum Labour majority will be 50, and it will likely higher. The polls won't tighten, Sunak is no Boris who maybe could have narrowed them a little during the campaign.
If Labour's majority is at the lower end of 50 or so, it'll be because people vote Reform UK rather than Labour, not because any go back to incompentance of the Conservative Party.
I admire the loyalty of the Conservative Party members on here, reminds me of my dad's loyalty to Labour in the dark days of the 1980s. I do wonder however if a few might not be so loyal in the voting booth, who knows, I suspect my dad never voted other than Labour, I'm 99.9% sure, but I don't know for sure, anything is possible.
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Post by greenhert on Jun 2, 2024 7:11:32 GMT
If Shaheen stands as IND yes, IDS will win probably Lab party office in Chingford paint sprayed overnight "Isreal (sic) lobby work for us" Deplorable and unacceptable. Even if this scenario happens, the chances of Sir Iain Duncan Smith holding on are slim, especially given demographic change and his arguably negative reputation. |
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Post by batman on Jun 2, 2024 8:27:50 GMT
I certainly think the swing will be below average here, it's clear from local elections that the Tory vote is fairly obstinate in some wards, especially Chingford Green, Endlebury & Monkhams. But it's asking a lot of the Tories actually to hold it in a very bad year.
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Jun 2, 2024 9:12:53 GMT
If the very hypothetical situation you are suggesting should arise after the general election, then the precedents you mention (two of them now over 80 years old) will certainly not be followed (at least within a period shorter than several years). Rather than having to depend on the votes of defectors, Starmer would either call another general election later this year (so making their last parliament a distinctly short one) or leave it to other parties to see if they could form a government without Labour support. (And if you don't believe that, you have obviously never heard of Luke Akehurst). Luke Akehurst ? I believe some have referred to hin as Netenyahu's stoodge Well, if that description fits anyone in the Labour Party, then Akehurst may well be the most likely candidate (and possibly by quite some distance). But to believe that that is his most important feature is either to be convinced that Israel/Palestine is the only important current issue in British politics, or to know far too little about him to understand the current internal politics of the Labour Party (particularly, so far but perhaps not for much longer, outside Parliament). |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jun 2, 2024 10:24:34 GMT
Luke Akehurst ? I believe some have referred to hin as Netenyahu's stoodge Well, if that description fits anyone in the Labour Party, then Akehurst may well be the most likely candidate (and possibly by quite some distance). But to believe that that is his most important feature is either to be convinced that Israel/Palestine is the only important current issue in British politics, or to know far too little about him to understand the current internal politics of the Labour Party (particularly, so far but perhaps not for much longer, outside Parliament). I read somewhere that he has had significant surgery. |
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Post by norflondon on Jun 2, 2024 11:29:36 GMT
I understand, from someone in the seat reasonably close to Shaheen, that there's a good chance she'll stand as an Independent (or Green?(.
Chingford has been removed from Wm Hills betting list. 5/2 now IDS, from 9/2 at Lads.
If she did stand, one wonders if she would have access to the voters lists / intentions she has accumulated since July 2018 , or if her team has there own intel on this
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right
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Post by right on Jun 2, 2024 11:30:59 GMT
If the very hypothetical situation you are suggesting should arise after the general election, then the precedents you mention (two of them now over 80 years old) will certainly not be followed (at least within a period shorter than several years). Rather than having to depend on the votes of defectors, Starmer would either call another general election later this year (so making their last parliament a distinctly short one) or leave it to other parties to see if they could form a government without Labour support. (And if you don't believe that, you have obviously never heard of Luke Akehurst). Luke Akehurst ? I believe some have referred to hin as Netenyahu's stoodge Akehurst's issue isn't Israel, it's arms dealing. There's never been an arns dealer he won't represent. An entirely honourable career in my eyes, war's inevitable and Ukraine has shown that we need more rather than less British made arms, but Labour isn't as realistic about these things on the whole. |
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