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Post by jamesdoyle on Oct 16, 2023 15:26:07 GMT
Yeah, I did quite a lot of reading around the Valois Dukes of Burgundy at one point, and the imperialism of the Bernese was pretty striking. Not that Charles the Bold was any less so. (The latter's an interesting figure, if you're not familiar: rarely has anyone so strongly had the qualities you'd expect to result in success - workaholism, physical courage, physical fitness, intellect, ambition, determination, plus immense inherited wealth - but ended up failing so catastrophically, to the extent of consigning his whole dynasty and polity to the dustbin of history.) Indeed a fascinating figure, and had he prospered to the end the modern map of Europe might look very different.
However, the quality of his leadership seemed to deteriorate quite sharply in his last few years, and it's notable that 'the Bold' is not the only cognomen he acquired - he is also sometimes known as Charles 'the Reckless' or 'the Rash'.
I wrote an alternate history piece about him and Burgundy some years back. I came to one hypothesis and one speculation about him. The hypothesis is that he (following in the footsteps of his father) had a real plan to conquer, annex or buy territories that were critical to uniting the rather fragmented Burgundian territories to create a coherent whole from Burgundy proper up to the Netherlands. As he got older, without producing a male heir, he became more anxious and frantic about achieving this, and so overreached himself, spreading his efforts too thin, and not putting enough effort into solidifying control of previous gains. This was exacerbated by that fact that the only logical way to create a continuous territory was through Lorraine (Champagne would be been an alternative, at least in theory, but following the Burgundian break with England and rapprochement with France, that was out). Going after Lorraine meant making an enemy of the Emperor, which was a massive mistake. The speculation is that, prior to the break with England, he was seemingly very attached to Elizabeth of York, daughter of Richard Plantagenet. He ended up marrying Isabella, the daughter of the French king, instead as part of the France-Burgundy truce, and had a single daughter. After she died, he married Elizabeth's sister Margaret, but had no issue thereby. We can only speculate about the reasons for the lack of issue (Isabella was a closely related to Charles), but had he married Elizabeth, who as Duchess of Suffolk had eleven children, ten of whom lived to adulthood, things might have been very different. In my AH timeline, they are, of course. |
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Oct 16, 2023 15:36:19 GMT
Yeah, I did quite a lot of reading around the Valois Dukes of Burgundy at one point, and the imperialism of the Bernese was pretty striking. Not that Charles the Bold was any less so. (The latter's an interesting figure, if you're not familiar: rarely has anyone so strongly had the qualities you'd expect to result in success - workaholism, physical courage, physical fitness, intellect, ambition, determination, plus immense inherited wealth - but ended up failing so catastrophically, to the extent of consigning his whole dynasty and polity to the dustbin of history.) There's a concept called the Brünig-Napf-Reuss Line in Switzerland. Basically, there are certain cultural differences that transcend language barriers, such as the figures on decks of cards. And these broadly align to whether an area was ever under Burgundian domination. For a different definition of Burgundian than Valois Burgundian, of course (though it's fair to say that Charles the Bold seemed to be aiming at getting control of anything that had ever been Burgundian under any definition whatever). |
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Post by manchesterman on Oct 16, 2023 15:54:21 GMT
An interesting little map...
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 16, 2023 16:01:07 GMT
There's a concept called the Brünig-Napf-Reuss Line in Switzerland. Basically, there are certain cultural differences that transcend language barriers, such as the figures on decks of cards. And these broadly align to whether an area was ever under Burgundian domination. For a different definition of Burgundian than Valois Burgundian, of course (though it's fair to say that Charles the Bold seemed to be aiming at getting control of anything that had ever been Burgundian under any definition whatever). Indeed. I think there have been something like seven different Burgundies. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 16, 2023 16:02:13 GMT
An interesting little map... Poland A and Poland B just won't go away! |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 16, 2023 16:28:56 GMT
For a different definition of Burgundian than Valois Burgundian, of course (though it's fair to say that Charles the Bold seemed to be aiming at getting control of anything that had ever been Burgundian under any definition whatever). Indeed. I think there have been something like seven different Burgundies. "A Burgundy is a claret"
"Yes, but they wouldn't know that"
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Post by rcronald on Oct 16, 2023 17:31:04 GMT
An interesting little map... Poland A and Poland B just won't go away! Russian backwardness just can’t be beaten. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 16, 2023 17:46:35 GMT
Yeah, I did quite a lot of reading around the Valois Dukes of Burgundy at one point, and the imperialism of the Bernese was pretty striking. Not that Charles the Bold was any less so. (The latter's an interesting figure, if you're not familiar: rarely has anyone so strongly had the qualities you'd expect to result in success - workaholism, physical courage, physical fitness, intellect, ambition, determination, plus immense inherited wealth - but ended up failing so catastrophically, to the extent of consigning his whole dynasty and polity to the dustbin of history.) Indeed a fascinating figure, and had he prospered to the end the modern map of Europe might look very different.
However, the quality of his leadership seemed to deteriorate quite sharply in his last few years, and it's notable that 'the Bold' is not the only cognomen he acquired - he is also sometimes known as Charles 'the Reckless' or 'the Rash'.
Those are all attempts to translate the untranslatable French word "temeraire" (unlike his ancestor Philip the Bold, where the French cognomen was "le hardi", which is more straightforwardly "bold".) I read somewhere (I think Richard Vaughan's book) that in his lifetime he was known as "the hardworking" but I don't know what the French was. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Oct 16, 2023 17:51:12 GMT
Given that the EU is run by moderate reasonable and serious people, there must be electoral events where a government or potential government that they regarded as worryingly left-wing is elected or defeated, and this must I assume cause expressions of satisfaction or pleasure.
To balance out the occasions when a regrettably right-wing option is elected, or not elected
can anyone offer an example of when moderate reasonable and serious people regarded being too left-wing as a reason for interest or concern?
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 16, 2023 17:52:19 GMT
Indeed a fascinating figure, and had he prospered to the end the modern map of Europe might look very different.
However, the quality of his leadership seemed to deteriorate quite sharply in his last few years, and it's notable that 'the Bold' is not the only cognomen he acquired - he is also sometimes known as Charles 'the Reckless' or 'the Rash'.
[snip for space] The classic alternate history for him is in Passport To Pimlico, in which he survives, escapes to England, where he lives incognito in retirement and his brother-in-law Edward IV grants him the manor of Pimlico with the privilege that it will be Burgundian territory in perpetuity. |
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Oct 16, 2023 18:04:20 GMT
God this forum is pathetic, it can't even discuss an important election without drifting off on the most absurd tangents.
Now that the results are pretty clear it raises the question of just what kind of government Tusk might be able to form. The opposition parties are united in pretty much nothing except their opposition to Law and Justice and putting together a vaguely coherent government is going to be a difficult task.
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Post by islington on Oct 16, 2023 18:05:54 GMT
Indeed a fascinating figure, and had he prospered to the end the modern map of Europe might look very different.
However, the quality of his leadership seemed to deteriorate quite sharply in his last few years, and it's notable that 'the Bold' is not the only cognomen he acquired - he is also sometimes known as Charles 'the Reckless' or 'the Rash'.
Those are all attempts to translate the untranslatable French word "temeraire" (unlike his ancestor Philip the Bold, where the French cognomen was "le hardi", which is more straightforwardly "bold".). Audacious? Or there is apparently an English word 'temerarious'. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 16, 2023 18:06:00 GMT
Given that the EU is run by moderate reasonable and serious people, there must be electoral events where a government or potential government that they regarded as worryingly left-wing is elected or defeated, and this must I assume cause expressions of satisfaction or pleasure. To balance out the occasions when a regrettably right-wing option is elected, or not elected can anyone offer an example of when moderate reasonable and serious people regarded being too left-wing as a reason for interest or concern? The issue the EU has/had with PiS has bugger all to do with being right-wing, and everything to do with political interference in the judiciary and the media. FWIW though, I would have thought that Syriza in Greece were, initially, problematically left-wing. But again, that's not the left-wing-ness as such, but the left-wing economics which led them to reject the EU's conditions for lending them huge quantities of cash. Their subsequent acceptance of the terms removing the difficulty. |
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Post by stodge on Oct 16, 2023 18:15:58 GMT
MY concern is whether Law & Justice are just going to let go of power that easily. The broadcast media trumpets their message without question and with vague comments about "warnings" from the Electoral Commission, I wonder if there is a plan to perpetrate a steal and keep PiS in power.
I hope not but for those in charge of the loyalist tv channels there must be a concern they will find it impossible to work with a non-PiS Government.
The numbers currently suggest Tusk's Civic Coalition, the Third Way and the Left would have 248 seats in the new Sejm with PiS and Confederation on 212.
I suspect, contrary to what some are arguing, formation of a new Government won't be difficult and the notion of not allowing Jones back will be the glue which holds that Government together. How effective PiS will be in opposition remains to be seen.
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Oct 16, 2023 18:21:37 GMT
I suspect, contrary to what some are arguing, formation of a new Government won't be difficult and the notion of not allowing Jones back will be the glue which holds that Government together. How effective PiS will be in opposition remains to be seen. I don't think that forming a new government will be difficult. Whether a coherent programme of government can be agreed upon and carried out is the big question. |
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Post by jamesdoyle on Oct 16, 2023 18:22:02 GMT
Those are all attempts to translate the untranslatable French word "temeraire" (unlike his ancestor Philip the Bold, where the French cognomen was "le hardi", which is more straightforwardly "bold".). Audacious? Or there is apparently an English word 'temerarious'. Foolhardy |
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Post by stodge on Oct 16, 2023 18:45:15 GMT
I suspect, contrary to what some are arguing, formation of a new Government won't be difficult and the notion of not allowing Jones back will be the glue which holds that Government together. How effective PiS will be in opposition remains to be seen. I don't think that forming a new government will be difficult. Whether a coherent programme of government can be agreed upon and carried out is the big question. Hopefully a lot of it will be to undo the pernicious PiS intrusion into the broadcast media, the judiciary and other branches of Government. |
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 16, 2023 19:00:13 GMT
Yeah, I did quite a lot of reading around the Valois Dukes of Burgundy at one point, and the imperialism of the Bernese was pretty striking. Not that Charles the Bold was any less so. (The latter's an interesting figure, if you're not familiar: rarely has anyone so strongly had the qualities you'd expect to result in success - workaholism, physical courage, physical fitness, intellect, ambition, determination, plus immense inherited wealth - but ended up failing so catastrophically, to the extent of consigning his whole dynasty and polity to the dustbin of history.) Indeed a fascinating figure, and had he prospered to the end the modern map of Europe might look very different.
However, the quality of his leadership seemed to deteriorate quite sharply in his last few years, and it's notable that 'the Bold' is not the only cognomen he acquired - he is also sometimes known as Charles 'the Reckless' or 'the Rash'.
Not to be confused with Charles the Bald, grandson of Charles the Great, and ruler of proto France in the mid 800s..... |
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Post by matureleft on Oct 16, 2023 19:00:44 GMT
The President, who is a former PiS parliamentarian, has the power to veto legislation subject to a three fifths majority override. His term runs until 2025. So this is going to be a period where some deft work in a polarised environment will be required.
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Oct 16, 2023 19:08:29 GMT
I don't think that forming a new government will be difficult. Whether a coherent programme of government can be agreed upon and carried out is the big question. Hopefully a lot of it will be to undo the pernicious PiS intrusion into the broadcast media, the judiciary and other branches of Government. So the concerns of activists will be the priority, that always ends well. |
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