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Post by markgoodair on Sept 3, 2023 9:11:52 GMT
Poland goes to the polls on 15th October. Election posters are already visible in Gdańsk.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 3, 2023 9:25:50 GMT
Here's to the defeat of "Law and Justice".
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 3, 2023 9:45:26 GMT
I work with two Polish men, who chat with me about politics because nobody else is interested, frankly.
One told me the other day that Law and Justice have tried, or have succeeded maybe, in putting in such dense restrictions on casting and counting votes of Poles abroad at Manchester's embassy (and I presume others) , that votes will be
ruled invalid. As the votes total to the Capital's constituency, where the government usually lose, it's an obvious attempt to fiddle the results, as the Tories have done with photo ID
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Sept 3, 2023 10:20:15 GMT
I work with two Polish men, who chat with me about politics because nobody else is interested, frankly. One told me the other day that Law and Justice have tried, or have succeeded maybe, in putting in such dense restrictions on casting and counting votes of Poles abroad at Manchester's embassy (and I presume others) , that votes will be ruled invalid. As the votes total to the Capital's constituency, where the government usually lose, it's an obvious attempt to fiddle the results, as the Tories have done with photo ID Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? |
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Post by johnhemming on Sept 3, 2023 13:16:20 GMT
as the Tories have done with photo ID AFAICs Photo ID did not help the tories electorally, but it did help the integrity of the electoral system. I support photo ID. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 3, 2023 14:00:03 GMT
as the Tories have done with photo ID AFAICs Photo ID did not help the tories electorally, but it did help the integrity of the electoral system. I support photo ID. That's fine, we differ. I'm okay with differing! |
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Post by tamar on Sept 3, 2023 15:17:22 GMT
I work with two Polish men, who chat with me about politics because nobody else is interested, frankly. One told me the other day that Law and Justice have tried, or have succeeded maybe, in putting in such dense restrictions on casting and counting votes of Poles abroad at Manchester's embassy (and I presume others) , that votes will be ruled invalid. As the votes total to the Capital's constituency, where the government usually lose, it's an obvious attempt to fiddle the results, as the Tories have done with photo ID Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? Hi, Polish citizen here! I assume the people doktorb was talking to were talking about 1) the recent change to the law that allows all votes from an overseas precinct to be deemed invalid if the result isn't reported within 24 hours and 2) the fact that the foreign office still hasn't decided how many overseas precincts there will be this election or where they will be, and until that is done Poles abroad can't register to vote. You might say that 24 hours is long enough for vote counters to get their act together, but there's no such limit for precincts within the country, and there's no obvious reason why voters in a particular location should be penalised because they voted somewhere that had particularly high turnout, needed a recount, or because the government purchased glitchy vote tallying software (this has happened). Certainly I don't think the government has deigned to provide one, this was buried in a big stack of amendments to the election law and to my knowledge every attempt to change it or even ask about it has met dead silence. And certainly they didn't think it was a problem in 2015, when the overseas vote went their way but turnout was lower. It's also the case that the number of precincts was sharply reduced during the last presidential election, and there were anecdotal reports of consulate staff mishandling ballots, although most of that will probably be down to covid silliness. Is any of this likely to make a difference this election? Maybe - in recent elections, the overseas vote just mirrored the tendencies in Warsaw itself, and the number of seats Warsaw gets is fixed so high turnout abroad just means people actually living in Warsaw just find themselves drowned out. (Why is it like that? A light piece of gerrymandering by the Communists that's stuck around - they wrongly anticipated a close election in 1989 and thought the votes of diplomatic staff might make a difference) That said, one seat here or there could be enough to shift the balance in this or that direction, and it certainly could make a difference in a close presidential election. I think you can see why people, or at least supporters of opposition parties, are suspicious. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Sept 3, 2023 15:37:58 GMT
I work with two Polish men, who chat with me about politics because nobody else is interested, frankly. One told me the other day that Law and Justice have tried, or have succeeded maybe, in putting in such dense restrictions on casting and counting votes of Poles abroad at Manchester's embassy (and I presume others) , that votes will be ruled invalid. As the votes total to the Capital's constituency, where the government usually lose, it's an obvious attempt to fiddle the results, as the Tories have done with photo ID Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Sept 3, 2023 15:46:42 GMT
Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. Law and Justice may have history, but doctorb is still just reporting hersay. Hersay isn't evidence, however much you would like it to be. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 3, 2023 16:10:40 GMT
Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. And I believe the evidence from two politically astute family men from Poland, one who has just returned from a summer break "back home". I believe him when he says TVP has become a propagandist machine. I believe him when he says voting rights have become more restricted. I know who to listen to and believe. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Sept 3, 2023 16:13:36 GMT
If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. Law and Justice may have history, but doctorb is still just reporting hersay. Hersay isn't evidence, however much you would like it to be. This isn't a court of law. You don't need to present a detailed corpus of evidence to be allowed to oppose a change in law. I would also add that tamar has added yet more evidence, but you just ignore that, blinded by your admiration for Eastern European wannabe autocrats. |
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Post by mrpastelito on Sept 3, 2023 17:00:41 GMT
Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. Someone who lives in a totalitarian sham democracy and doesn't realise it because he himself is an obvious totalitarian who fantasises about interning critical minds lectures us about democratic deficits in other states. Unbelievable. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Sept 3, 2023 17:44:07 GMT
If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. Someone who lives in a totalitarian sham democracy and doesn't realise it because he himself is an obvious totalitarian who fantasises about interning critical minds lectures us about democratic deficits in other states. Unbelievable. A saboteur isn't a critical mind. |
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Post by dizz on Sept 3, 2023 19:58:17 GMT
If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. Law and Justice may have history, but doctorb is still just reporting hersay. Hersay isn't evidence, however much you would like it to be. I think you mean hearsay. Hersay is when you follow the the wife's instructions.  |
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Sept 3, 2023 20:30:14 GMT
Some bloke told you something and therefore you conclude that it is "an obvious attempt to fiddle the results". Did it occur to you that there may be good reasons for the changes? Did you to do some research and establish what the changes actually are? Did you consider both sides of the argument? Or do you just prefer to rant from a position of self righteous ignorance? If you are familiar with Law and Justice, you would know it is their style. The onus should be on them to prove that is not their intent (and, as reported earlier on this thread, they do whatever they can to not talk about it). We are talking about a party who uses state ressources to spy on a former Alberta deputy Premier of Polish origin who dared voice criticism of a businessman close to the party and sacked a consul who refused to play along and then used their power to make sure the opposition couldn't hear about it in the Sejm. But then again, nothing new under the sun from "eastmidlands"putinist. I have very little time for Law and Justice and I am more than willing to accept they have malign intent with these changes but I require a slightly more convincing argument than "some bloke told me". Obviously I don't expect anything better from someone so retarded that they think I am a "putinist". |
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johng
Labour
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Post by johng on Oct 15, 2023 8:39:33 GMT
It's election day today.
There have been quite a flurry of polls over the last few days showing a slight movement against the incumbent government. They have shown quite a range of results with a PiS majority of between 3 and 10 points being given. Their majority was just over 16 points in 2019.
A majority government, which has been the standard for quite some time now, seems far from certain. My feeling is that the most likely outcome is a PiS - Confederation (far-right nationalist) coalition or a PiS government with confidence and supply from them. A grand coalition of the opposition led by Tusk's Civic Platform is not out of the question either. Though, if that happens, they will have a very narrow majority and it will be a very broad group to hold together.
The opposition will clearly hold on to its majority in the (weak) Senate.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 15, 2023 12:05:14 GMT
There was a great article in the FT the other day setting out just how much of this polarisation is down to Tusk and Kaczynski being completely bitter and obsessed with each other.
Kaczynski came off as a nutter but Tusk has a strong whiff of I Am The Man of Destiny about him.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 15, 2023 12:11:21 GMT
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 15, 2023 12:14:10 GMT
Saw a poster for this election in Derbyshire a week ago.
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Post by rcronald on Oct 15, 2023 12:46:47 GMT
I wonder if TD would prefer a coalition with KO+L or PiS in the unlikely case that Confederation doesn’t cross the threshold. (They would obviously prefer KO+L if Con cross the threshold)
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