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Post by finsobruce on Jul 21, 2023 16:14:34 GMT
It did so under the belief that diesel cars were significantly less polluting than they actually are. They weren't responsible for manufacturers cheating on emissions tests. The tax changes made by Gordon Brown which encouraged the purchase of diesel vehicles happened long before the emissions software scandal started. I never understood this at the time. Anyone who had stood anywhere near a diesel vehicle, would almost certainly have thought them more polluting rather than less.
The only explanation i could come up with was that this was something Brown had got into his head, and as with many other things, brooked no discussion whatsoever (cue hairdryers), even though it was completely wrongheaded.
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Khunanup
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Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Jul 21, 2023 16:34:50 GMT
The tax changes made by Gordon Brown which encouraged the purchase of diesel vehicles happened long before the emissions software scandal started. I never understood this at the time. Anyone who had stood anywhere near a diesel vehicle, would almost certainly have thought them more polluting rather than less.
The only explanation i could come up with was that this was something Brown had got into his head, and as with many other things, brooked no discussion whatsoever (cue hairdryers), even though it was completely wrongheaded.
I always understood that it was around fuel efficiency rather than anything to do with emissions as such. The latter was more of a by-product, ie that per litre of fuel use the pollution caused by a diesel powered car would be slightly less than a petrol vehicle as they might have 'cleaner' engines overall but they use a markedly larger amount of fuel. Still thought it was weird to do but perhaps there were underlying concerns about future fuel supply that Brown et al were worried about which weren't common knowledge. |
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myth11
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Post by myth11 on Jul 21, 2023 16:41:43 GMT
The tax changes made by Gordon Brown which encouraged the purchase of diesel vehicles happened long before the emissions software scandal started. I never understood this at the time. Anyone who had stood anywhere near a diesel vehicle, would almost certainly have thought them more polluting rather than less.
The only explanation i could come up with was that this was something Brown had got into his head, and as with many other things, brooked no discussion whatsoever (cue hairdryers), even though it was completely wrongheaded.
Diesel has less CO2 emissions due in part to the Higher NOx emissions but at the time it was a rush to cut CO2 hence the diesel push as well as the biomass power stations which is also turning a bit sour. |
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johnloony
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Post by johnloony on Jul 21, 2023 16:46:29 GMT
There's another lesson here, which has more relevance than ULEZ - and that is if the Tories try to please swing voters rather than dinner party guests they can still win Sunak probably doesn't have the stomach to have a focussed populist campaign, and he may fail any way But it is an alternative route What demographic is “dinner party guests”? |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jul 21, 2023 16:51:07 GMT
LabourList are reporting that the chair of Uxbridge CLP has resigned in wake of the defeat last night. that seems a bit dramatic If the Labour HQ approach to by-elections is similar to that of the LD HQ (and I can't imagine it is any more relaxed) the local party Chairman's influence is tangental, marginal, small . . . (I now see he was not taking responsibility for the result) |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 21, 2023 17:11:59 GMT
I never understood this at the time. Anyone who had stood anywhere near a diesel vehicle, would almost certainly have thought them more polluting rather than less.
The only explanation i could come up with was that this was something Brown had got into his head, and as with many other things, brooked no discussion whatsoever (cue hairdryers), even though it was completely wrongheaded.
I always understood that it was around fuel efficiency rather than anything to do with emissions as such. The latter was more of a by-product, ie that per litre of fuel use the pollution caused by a diesel powered car would be slightly less than a petrol vehicle as they might have 'cleaner' engines overall but they use a markedly larger amount of fuel. Still thought it was weird to do but perhaps there were underlying concerns about future fuel supply that Brown et al were worried about which weren't common knowledge. Frankly, I doubt it. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 21, 2023 19:01:55 GMT
People don't blame the last Labour government for them diesel cars, as most bought them after 2010. The Tories on here are delusional if they think so. They might blame local Labour for Clean Air Zones now, even if it's actually Tory policies that introduced them.
Reality is most people think a plague on both your houses, and that the Tories are such a shower of shite now that it's time for a change, this is why the Tories will lose the next election.
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Jul 21, 2023 19:25:27 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost
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iain
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Post by iain on Jul 21, 2023 19:33:50 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost Had Johnson been the candidate it is basically inconceivable that the Tories would have been able to turn this into a referendum on ULEZ - in that scenario it would almost certainly have been a fairly large loss. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Jul 21, 2023 19:38:00 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost He would have lost. One interesting aspect of this result is that it makes sense of some the odd disconnect between recent local and national voting habits here: Johnson had a negative personal vote. Probably not many votes, but enough. Additionally it would have been impossible to have run a relentless single-issue campaign on ULEZ as he would have been the issue. Of course a few of the other factors would still run in his favour (the Brunel students being at home, continued movement towards the Conservatives amongst Hindus perhaps due to Sunak etc) but they wouldn't have been enough alone. |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Jul 21, 2023 21:14:14 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost He would have lost. One interesting aspect of this result is that it makes sense of some the odd disconnect between recent local and national voting habits here: Johnson had a negative personal vote. Probably not many votes, but enough. Additionally it would have been impossible to have run a relentless single-issue campaign on ULEZ as he would have been the issue. Of course a few of the other factors would still run in his favour (the Brunel students being at home, continued movement towards the Conservatives amongst Hindus perhaps due to Sunak etc) but they wouldn't have been enough alone. Plus wasn't the original idea of a ULEZ first put out when he was mayor? Unlike the Olympics and 'Boris' bikes, this is something he can take credit for, though would be unlikely to admit it during the campaign, but some decent comms from the opposition and disseminated through the population (and anyone with an ounce of critical thinking) and the ULEZ would have hindered, not helped him. And had he stood and lost it would have the inadvertent effect of taking some of the blame away from Sunak on that one, being a referendum on Johnson as well as RS. Whereas had they lost the 'triple whammy' (without Johnson) you can be certain there would now be murmurs of 1922 letters going in over the weekend. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jul 21, 2023 23:12:55 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost He would have lost. One interesting aspect of this result is that it makes sense of some the odd disconnect between recent local and national voting habits here: Johnson had a negative personal vote. Probably not many votes, but enough. Additionally it would have been impossible to have run a relentless single-issue campaign on ULEZ as he would have been the issue. Of course a few of the other factors would still run in his favour (the Brunel students being at home, continued movement towards the Conservatives amongst Hindus perhaps due to Sunak etc) but they wouldn't have been enough alone. Had Johnson still resigned immediately and asked to contest the by-election himself, then yes, that'd have been a factor. If he'd allowed the recall petition process to play out, might the students not have been back by the time the resultant by-election actually occurred? That said, the rest of your analysis looks sound so all it would have meant is an even bigger defeat. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jul 21, 2023 23:35:22 GMT
The last Labour government, a government in which Khan was a transport minister, encouraged people to buy diesel. Now those people are punishing them for it. It's hardly surprising the public are pissed. It did so under the belief that diesel cars were significantly less polluting than they actually are. They weren't responsible for manufacturers cheating on emissions tests. Which is why such tests must be paid by the manufacturers but ran totally separated from them. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jul 22, 2023 0:03:12 GMT
Surely 4 or 5 weeks ago the students were still in residence! Why were they not signed up for postal votes?
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Jul 22, 2023 0:34:19 GMT
Surely 4 or 5 weeks ago the students were still in residence! Why were they not signed up for postal votes? The difficulty Stoke Central found in 2019 was chasing them up to return their postal votes as you’re unlikely to have the ability to get a home address out of the constituency to which to send the postal vote if they’ve gone “home” to Ma and Pa at the opposite end of the country. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 22, 2023 2:32:07 GMT
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Post by elinorhelyn on Jul 22, 2023 4:36:00 GMT
Unfortunately this by election is the gravestone of Tory environmentalism.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2023 5:28:36 GMT
Unfortunately this by election is the gravestone of Tory environmentalism. This b-e, and Lord Goldsmith leaving the government, IMO. |
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right
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Post by right on Jul 22, 2023 7:51:28 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost Interesting that there's a universally negative reaction Tories were reporting a pro Boris feeling on the doorstep in Uxbridge and any Tory canvasser will tell you that there are Tory voters who are staying at home at least partly because of the treatment of Boris (although the general crapness of returning to a normal interest rate environment plays a larger part in this) It may have been hard to frame the ULEZ issue with Boris"s previous support for it, but it's not beyond the wit of someone to say it works over there but won't work here for reasons. Replace time with place and that's the Starmer schtick with Brexit, that seems to work. It's hard to see how much further the Lib Dem vote could have been squeezed, although admittedly the Green vote could have been cut and perhaps the turnout raised His personal vote may have been swamped by his detractors, but we really don't know. Few thought the Tories could win at all. And that belief that the Tories lose every by-election would have coloured ANY Tory win (or loss). As for what a Boris loss would look like, it's almost certain that it would have been less brutal than Selby and a Boris factor would have been erroneously detected, and believed. Particularly by those who would grudge it. On balance I think Boris missed a chance here. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2023 8:05:02 GMT
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere in the thread but I wonder if Boris might have some regrets about not just fighting through the recall process and any by-election after this? It would certainly have given him a credibility boost Interesting that there's a universally negative reaction Tories were reporting a pro Boris feeling on the doorstep in Uxbridge and any Tory canvasser will tell you that there are Tory voters who are staying at home at least partly because of the treatment of Boris (although the general crapness of returning to a normal interest rate environment plays a larger part in this) It may have been hard to frame the ULEZ issue with Boris"s previous support for it, but it's not beyond the wit of someone to say it works over there but won't work here for reasons. Replace time with place and that's the Starmer schtick with Brexit, that seems to work. It's hard to see how much further the Lib Dem vote could have been squeezed, although admittedly the Green vote could have been cut and perhaps the turnout raised His personal vote may have been swamped by his detractors, but we really don't know. Few thought the Tories could win at all. And that belief that the Tories lose every by-election would have coloured ANY Tory win (or loss). As for what a Boris loss would look like, it's almost certain that it would have been less brutal than Selby and a Boris factor would have been erroneously detected, and believed. Particularly by those who would grudge it. On balance I think Boris missed a chance here. Did Boris support spreading ULEZ to all of London? ULEZ expansion, rather than its existence, was decisive here. |
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