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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 4, 2023 16:11:12 GMT
Catalonians should encourage Andorra to join the EU, then they'd get Catalan in for free. Can you imagine Andorra giving up its twin economic pillars - selling cheap fags and booze to the French and providing banking "services" to the Spanish?
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 4, 2023 16:53:53 GMT
Catalonians should encourage Andorra to join the EU, then they'd get Catalan in for free. Can you imagine Andorra giving up its twin economic pillars - selling cheap fags and booze to the French and providing banking "services" to the Spanish? If you watch Border Force Spain, often the most entertaining incidents involve money and the border with Andorra... Incidentally, the Gib/Spain border cases appear to revolve around ciggies & alcohol (thus filling that niche 😬).
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 4, 2023 17:08:28 GMT
Can you imagine Andorra giving up its twin economic pillars - selling cheap fags and booze to the French and providing banking "services" to the Spanish? If you watch Border Force Spain, often the most entertaining incidents involve money and the border with Andorra... Incidentally, the Gib/Spain border cases appear to revolve around ciggies & alcohol (thus filling that niche 😬). Yeah, no shortages of cash being brought in. Great country though. Winter or summer. Great hiking and skiing, incredible scenery, excellent food, and it's all really cheap!
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 4, 2023 17:45:17 GMT
If you watch Border Force Spain, often the most entertaining incidents involve money and the border with Andorra... Incidentally, the Gib/Spain border cases appear to revolve around ciggies & alcohol (thus filling that niche 😬). Yeah, no shortages of cash being brought in. Great country though. Winter or summer. Great hiking and skiing, incredible scenery, excellent food, and it's all really cheap! Oh - expected it to be a super-expensive "Liechtenstein of SW-Europe".
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,042
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Post by ilerda on Oct 4, 2023 18:29:53 GMT
If you watch Border Force Spain, often the most entertaining incidents involve money and the border with Andorra... Incidentally, the Gib/Spain border cases appear to revolve around ciggies & alcohol (thus filling that niche 😬). Yeah, no shortages of cash being brought in. Great country though. Winter or summer. Great hiking and skiing, incredible scenery, excellent food, and it's all really cheap! Cheap? Cost of living is high even if the price of goods in the shops isn’t.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 4, 2023 19:32:08 GMT
Yeah, no shortages of cash being brought in. Great country though. Winter or summer. Great hiking and skiing, incredible scenery, excellent food, and it's all really cheap! Cheap? Cost of living is high even if the price of goods in the shops isn’t. I imagine it is not cheap to live there but I've had a couple of trips there and they really have not broken the bank. For a holiday, it is great value.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 4, 2023 19:32:46 GMT
Yeah, no shortages of cash being brought in. Great country though. Winter or summer. Great hiking and skiing, incredible scenery, excellent food, and it's all really cheap! Oh - expected it to be a super-expensive "Liechtenstein of SW-Europe". I could not believe how expensive Liechtenstein was. I had to drive to Feldkirch for a cheaper day out...
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Nov 1, 2023 10:32:09 GMT
Rumours are that Sánchez is going to attempt his investiture next week. There will be an amnesty law for the Catalan separatists, which has secured the support of ERC, but Junts are still negotiating. Whilst they aren't exactly known for their pragmatism, it's hard to see that they would reject Sánchez with an amnesty on the table.
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Post by rcronald on Nov 1, 2023 18:33:43 GMT
Rumours are that Sánchez is going to attempt his investiture next week. There will be an amnesty law for the Catalan separatists, which has secured the support of ERC, but Junts are still negotiating. Whilst they aren't exactly known for their pragmatism, it's hard to see that they would reject Sánchez with an amnesty on the table. An amnesty is going to blow up in Spain’s face in the long-term, but Sanchez doesn’t really care about anyone beside himself.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Nov 1, 2023 19:27:33 GMT
Rumours are that Sánchez is going to attempt his investiture next week. There will be an amnesty law for the Catalan separatists, which has secured the support of ERC, but Junts are still negotiating. Whilst they aren't exactly known for their pragmatism, it's hard to see that they would reject Sánchez with an amnesty on the table. An amnesty is going to blow up in Spain’s face in the long-term, but Sanchez doesn’t really care about anyone beside himself. I can understand opposing an amnesty (indeed I held that position myself for quite a while) but I don’t particularly see why it would blow up in Spain’s face? On your other point, it is absolutely *wild* the extent to which the Spanish right has convinced people / itself that Sánchez is some political anomaly for wanting power. That’s what politics is about!
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Post by rcronald on Nov 1, 2023 19:35:38 GMT
An amnesty is going to blow up in Spain’s face in the long-term, but Sanchez doesn’t really care about anyone beside himself. I can understand opposing an amnesty (indeed I held that position myself for quite a while) but I don’t particularly see why it would blow up in Spain’s face? On your other point, it is absolutely *wild* the extent to which the Spanish right has convinced people / itself that Sánchez is some political anomaly for wanting power. That’s what politics is about! Eventually, there's going to be another (extreme) popular independence movement in Spain who are going to go way overboard because they are going to assume that they'll get an amnesty. Sanchez and PSOE made some moves that would be unacceptable in the UK and almost every other nation on earth concerning the way they deal with Catalan nationalists and especially Eh Bildu in Navarre. Imagine Labour making a supply and confidence deal with Sinn Fain if they weren't abstentionists and a couple of wide-reaching deals in Holyrood and Westminster with a significantly more extreme version of the SNP.
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Georg Ebner
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Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Nov 1, 2023 19:43:29 GMT
Rumours are that Sánchez is going to attempt his investiture next week. There will be an amnesty law for the Catalan separatists, which has secured the support of ERC, but Junts are still negotiating. Whilst they aren't exactly known for their pragmatism, it's hard to see that they would reject Sánchez with an amnesty on the table. An amnesty is going to blow up in Spain’s face in the long-term, but Sanchez doesn’t really care about anyone beside himself. The recent elections have shown, that the Left can hardly get a majority without ERC/Bildu/BNG/Compromis/... (and my tabulations detected an evident trend of the nonCastillian fringes to the left), so they are and will be even more dependent on them, naturally infuriating the defenders of national unity. What reminds me immediately of Your country's last few years (albeit admittingly not being repeated by present opinionPolls).
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Post by rcronald on Nov 1, 2023 19:53:20 GMT
An amnesty is going to blow up in Spain’s face in the long-term, but Sanchez doesn’t really care about anyone beside himself. The recent elections have shown, that the Left can hardly get a majority without ERC/Bildu/BNG/Compromis/... (and my tabulations detected an evident trend of the nonCastillian fringes to the left), so they are and will be even more dependent on them, naturally infuriating the defenders of national unity. What reminds me immediately of Your country's last few years (albeit admittingly not being repeated by present opinionPolls). It’s a lot more extreme than in Israel because the Arab parties here don't want their villages to be independent of Israel (and a large majority would vote against any referendum that would created a 2-state solution if it included them in the Palestinian state) and have no actual connection to terrorist organizations ( Hadash is pro-Assad because it is a communist party and Balad isn't represented in the Knesset at the moment).
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Nov 1, 2023 21:21:59 GMT
The recent elections have shown, that the Left can hardly get a majority without ERC/Bildu/BNG/Compromis/... (and my tabulations detected an evident trend of the nonCastillian fringes to the left), so they are and will be even more dependent on them, naturally infuriating the defenders of national unity. What reminds me immediately of Your country's last few years (albeit admittingly not being repeated by present opinionPolls). It’s a lot more extreme than in Israel because the Arab parties here don't want their villages to be independent of Israel (and a large majority would vote against any referendum that would created a 2-state solution if it included them in the Palestinian state) and have no actual connection to terrorist organizations ( Hadash is pro-Assad because it is a communist party and Balad isn't represented in the Knesset at the moment). Yes, i saw opinionPolls of Palestinians preferring Israel (though many/most certainly only tacitly), albeit heard also rumours of a radicalization (especially of the youth)? Ra'am? A civilWar Castile-fringes is far from unimaginable any longer, but generally the scenery in Iberia seems less embarassing than in Your land, which has suffered several Intifadas.
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 10,823
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Post by iain on Nov 1, 2023 21:53:26 GMT
I can understand opposing an amnesty (indeed I held that position myself for quite a while) but I don’t particularly see why it would blow up in Spain’s face? On your other point, it is absolutely *wild* the extent to which the Spanish right has convinced people / itself that Sánchez is some political anomaly for wanting power. That’s what politics is about! Eventually, there's going to be another (extreme) popular independence movement in Spain who are going to go way overboard because they are going to assume that they'll get an amnesty. Sanchez and PSOE made some moves that would be unacceptable in the UK and almost every other nation on earth concerning the way they deal with Catalan nationalists and especially Eh Bildu in Navarre. Imagine Labour making a supply and confidence deal with Sinn Fain if they weren't abstentionists and a couple of wide-reaching deals in Holyrood and Westminster with a significantly more extreme version of the SNP. The hardline anti-independence policies have been a failure, whereas Sánchez’s conciliatory government saw pro-independence sentiment fall to a record low. You can argue about the necessity of a full amnesty, but it certainly doesn’t seem threatening. When it comes to deals with parties like Bildu - they have helped to govern for the past few years and there has been no cataclysm (indeed pro-independence sentiment has fallen). Also, virtually every Spanish government (including those of the right) has made deals with peripheral nationalists. The biggest myth of the Spanish right (recently) is that Sánchez’s actions are exceptional. The reality is they are the norm.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,130
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Post by maxque on Nov 2, 2023 4:42:01 GMT
I can understand opposing an amnesty (indeed I held that position myself for quite a while) but I don’t particularly see why it would blow up in Spain’s face? On your other point, it is absolutely *wild* the extent to which the Spanish right has convinced people / itself that Sánchez is some political anomaly for wanting power. That’s what politics is about! Eventually, there's going to be another (extreme) popular independence movement in Spain who are going to go way overboard because they are going to assume that they'll get an amnesty. Sanchez and PSOE made some moves that would be unacceptable in the UK and almost every other nation on earth concerning the way they deal with Catalan nationalists and especially Eh Bildu in Navarre. Imagine Labour making a supply and confidence deal with Sinn Fain if they weren't abstentionists and a couple of wide-reaching deals in Holyrood and Westminster with a significantly more extreme version of the SNP. Labour pushed for the Good Friday agreement, which is clearly wide-ranging. Conservative had supply and confidence from the DUP, which are pretty much Northern Ireland regionalists (the unionist label hides that their positions wouldn't be mainstream in any UK party).
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Post by rcronald on Nov 2, 2023 7:12:21 GMT
Eventually, there's going to be another (extreme) popular independence movement in Spain who are going to go way overboard because they are going to assume that they'll get an amnesty. Sanchez and PSOE made some moves that would be unacceptable in the UK and almost every other nation on earth concerning the way they deal with Catalan nationalists and especially Eh Bildu in Navarre. Imagine Labour making a supply and confidence deal with Sinn Fain if they weren't abstentionists and a couple of wide-reaching deals in Holyrood and Westminster with a significantly more extreme version of the SNP. Labour pushed for the Good Friday agreement, which is clearly wide-ranging. Conservative had supply and confidence from the DUP, which are pretty much Northern Ireland regionalists (the unionist label hides that their positions wouldn't be mainstream in any UK party). 1.Labour didn’t do it to receive supply and confidence from Sinn Fein. 2. DUP is opposed to separatism, unlike the parties Sanchez is sucking up to.
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,136
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Post by WJ on Nov 2, 2023 11:35:41 GMT
Labour pushed for the Good Friday agreement, which is clearly wide-ranging. Conservative had supply and confidence from the DUP, which are pretty much Northern Ireland regionalists (the unionist label hides that their positions wouldn't be mainstream in any UK party). 1.Labour didn’t do it to receive supply and confidence from Sinn Fein. 2. DUP is opposed to separatism, unlike the parties Sanchez is sucking up to. But as mentioned above, in the Spanish context, the right have been perfectly comfortable relying on support from right-wing nationalist parties in the past. The only difference here is that Rajoy destroyed any goodwill his party had with most of them, so the right wing nationalists are giving support (some of it very soft) to Sánchez. This is a bed made entirely by the PP and they're trying to engage in a bit of revisionism (as all parties do).
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Georg Ebner
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Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Nov 2, 2023 14:23:10 GMT
1.Labour didn’t do it to receive supply and confidence from Sinn Fein. 2. DUP is opposed to separatism, unlike the parties Sanchez is sucking up to. But as mentioned above, in the Spanish context, the right have been perfectly comfortable relying on support from right-wing nationalist parties in the past. The only difference here is that Rajoy destroyed any goodwill his party had with most of them, so the right wing nationalists are giving support (some of it very soft) to Sánchez. This is a bed made entirely by the PP and they're trying to engage in a bit of revisionism (as all parties do). No, "the only difference here is" not the badwill of evil Rajoy and PP, but that independentist Junts (or whatever their present name is) differs drastically from the old autonomist CiU.
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WJ
Non-Aligned
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Post by WJ on Nov 2, 2023 14:54:31 GMT
But as mentioned above, in the Spanish context, the right have been perfectly comfortable relying on support from right-wing nationalist parties in the past. The only difference here is that Rajoy destroyed any goodwill his party had with most of them, so the right wing nationalists are giving support (some of it very soft) to Sánchez. This is a bed made entirely by the PP and they're trying to engage in a bit of revisionism (as all parties do). No, "the only difference here is" not the badwill of evil Rajoy and PP, but that independentist Junts (or whatever their present name is) differs drastically from the old autonomist CiU.In part, due to the shifting relationship between Madrid and Catalonia under the leadership of Rajoy. The balance of power in the CiU and it's subsequent iterations shifted drastically from a coalition of strong-regionalists/soft-nationalists to hard nationalism in the build-up of "el procés".
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