|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 14, 2021 15:40:30 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy.
|
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Jan 14, 2021 16:02:02 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy. Is there ever a Dutch election when no new party enters parliament? |
|
|
|
Post by eurofighter! on Jan 14, 2021 16:02:16 GMT
I've seen your posts on the Belgian and Dutch threads...it probably helps if you speak the most spoken language in both countries but suffice to say, not only do you not know what you are talking about as maxque alludes to by bringing in non-salient issues so you can influence the Discourse, but you are in no place to complain about snide comments when you seem to have an agenda against certain categories of the population, and love banging on about how your superior mind was elevated above them whilst you stayed there for what, 6 months on an Erasmus? More than enough time to have a finger on the pulse of their psyche, I'm sure.
DENK, btw, have become largely irrelevant due to a row in the party.
|
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 14, 2021 16:09:03 GMT
I've seen your posts on the Belgian and Dutch threads...it probably helps if you speak the most spoken language in both countries but suffice to say, not only do you not know what you are talking about as maxque alludes to by bringing in non-salient issues so you can influence the Discourse, but you are in no place to complain about snide comments when you seem to have an agenda against certain categories of the population, and love banging on about how your superior mind was elevated above them whilst you stayed there for what, 6 months on an Erasmus? More than enough time to have a finger on the pulse of their psyche, I'm sure. DENK, btw, have become largely irrelevant due to a row in the party. I look forward to your contribution. Floor is yours. |
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,306 
|
Post by maxque on Jan 14, 2021 16:26:51 GMT
Your obsession about pushing irrelevent side-issues. Obviously, most people in Netherlands will care more about COVID (especially given how they bungled the answer to it) that an issue concerning a small minority group. In any case, no matter the country, electoral campaigns are rarely about foreign affairs and, honestly, you're quite smart and should know better. It's not an irrelevant side-issue. Rutte's row with Erdogan (particularly in 2017 but resurfacing as recently as October), and the behaviour of Denk towards other parliamentarians, are noteworthy events and talking-points of his current term. I agree that the AKP tendency to set up vassal parties through Europe is quite disturbing (also see Germany, the Parti Égalité Justice in France and the China-like methods to bully Kurds militants all around the world), but I very much doubt it is important or that anybody that isn't of turkish ancestry, have interactions with the community or hates them in the first place (hello, PVV voters) cares about it. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 14, 2021 17:10:59 GMT
I've seen your posts on the Belgian and Dutch threads...it probably helps if you speak the most spoken language in both countries but suffice to say, not only do you not know what you are talking about as maxque alludes to by bringing in non-salient issues so you can influence the Discourse, but you are in no place to complain about snide comments when you seem to have an agenda against certain categories of the population, and love banging on about how your superior mind was elevated above them whilst you stayed there for what, 6 months on an Erasmus? More than enough time to have a finger on the pulse of their psyche, I'm sure. DENK, btw, have become largely irrelevant due to a row in the party. I look forward to your contribution. Floor is yours. As an ignorant but interested observer I would genuinely welcome contributions by anyone who has anything useful to say |
|
|
|
Post by Andrew_S on Jan 14, 2021 17:14:42 GMT
In a way this reminds me of the Post Office scandal in this country. People being falsely accused of fraud and the people in charge refusing to accept they'd made a mistake for a long time. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 14, 2021 17:16:31 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy. Is there ever a Dutch election when no new party enters parliament? More than you think! Having a look now, 1998, 2003 and 2010 stand out. Looking at 1994, there were two competing pensioner parties that entered! They formed a common list for 1998 but lost all of their seats. 1971 looks like it has the most in recent history, with three new parties, although one of those was a splinter. |
|
|
|
Post by eurofighter! on Jan 14, 2021 20:51:27 GMT
I look forward to your contribution. Floor is yours. As an ignorant but interested observer I would genuinely welcome contributions by anyone who has anything useful to say What do you need to know? The Dutch political system has been one of the most (over-)analyzed in the political scene. That's partly down to its tendency to attract quality political scientists. Partly down to it fitting into a lot of theories that political scientists love. its a playground for them. It was for sure a simple political scene when the religious cleavages existed, when every cleavage had their own paper, football club, and so on. Nowadays things are complex, there's patterns and then there's too many anomalies for the patterns to be applicable as rules. With so much competition, it sometimes just comes down to a party having a stronger ground game and tradition in a city to another at that specific time, or an event. Where election are won at the margins is difficult to say. Its true that Rutte probably escaped to victory last time because of the stand off with Turkey. That is no longer an issue. Given this is an election board I would follow Josse de Voogd on twitter as he has the best maps, insights and generally does a good job of explaining how Dutch electoral geography works. I'd also add frontbencher, peilingwijzer nynke de zoeten, Jan Overwijk, Tom van der Meer, Herman van de Werfhorst, and then Armen Hakhverdian and his excellent podcast Stuk Rood Vlees that covers a lot of PoSci (in English too but the Dutch-centred ones are probably in Dutch). But I think understand the Hague you have to read (British favorite) Joris Luyendijk and his anthropological take on the Dutch political class (Je hebt het niet van mij, maar... Een maand aan het binnenhof). In fact, I would recommend that book to anybody wanting to understand how parliamentary politics operates in a Dutch-like system, and wanting to understand the relationship between politicians, lobby groups and journalists. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 14, 2021 21:53:22 GMT
As an ignorant but interested observer I would genuinely welcome contributions by anyone who has anything useful to say What do you need to know? The Dutch political system has been one of the most (over-)analyzed in the political scene. That's partly down to its tendency to attract quality political scientists. Partly down to it fitting into a lot of theories that political scientists love. its a playground for them. It was for sure a simple political scene when the religious cleavages existed, when every cleavage had their own paper, football club, and so on. Nowadays things are complex, there's patterns and then there's too many anomalies for the patterns to be applicable as rules. With so much competition, it sometimes just comes down to a party having a stronger ground game and tradition in a city to another at that specific time, or an event. Where election are won at the margins is difficult to say. Its true that Rutte probably escaped to victory last time because of the stand off with Turkey. That is no longer an issue. Given this is an election board I would follow Josse de Voogd on twitter as he has the best maps, insights and generally does a good job of explaining how Dutch electoral geography works. I'd also add frontbencher, peilingwijzer nynke de zoeten, Jan Overwijk, Tom van der Meer, Herman van de Werfhorst, and then Armen Hakhverdian and his excellent podcast Stuk Rood Vlees that covers a lot of PoSci (in English too but the Dutch-centred ones are probably in Dutch). But I think understand the Hague you have to read (British favorite) Joris Luyendijk and his anthropological take on the Dutch political class (Je hebt het niet van mij, maar... Een maand aan het binnenhof). In fact, I would recommend that book to anybody wanting to understand how parliamentary politics operates in a Dutch-like system, and wanting to understand the relationship between politicians, lobby groups and journalists. Thankyou, all of that is doubtless useful to those who are really interested. Personally, I am someone interested and slightly engaged in British politics with an academic (in loosest meaning) interest in those of other countries, especially those with which the UK has close relations. I don't speak or read Dutch. I think none of that's unusual here. I'd be interested in any comment or analysis on the coming election from anyone who knows what the key issues are, how the leading personalities are seen, and how the various parties are likely to interact both in the campaign and in negotiations to form a coalition afterwards. Regional variations and their causes would be especially valuable. To be perfectly honest I'm unlikely to go away and listen to a load of podcasts or read whole books on Dutch politics, (as a personal quirk I don't do Twitter either, but if I did I might well start following de Voogd) and in saying that I am neither disrespecting your recommendations (which I genuinely think will be valuable to some on here) nor do I feel the need to justify my unwillingness to spend time on serious research, since I am currently reserving that for Charlemagne. Anyone willing to give the sort of detail that Richard Allen or timmullen1 do for US events, Georg Ebner for Austria and mitteleuropa more widely would be an asset to this board. Your second paragraph is, for example, useful to me even if the implication may be "nobody knows!" |
|
|
|
Post by greenhert on Jan 14, 2021 22:25:04 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy. Is there ever a Dutch election when no new party enters parliament? There have been a few. No new party entered the Dutch parliament in 2010, nor in 1998 or 2003, for example. |
|
|
|
Post by greenhert on Jan 14, 2021 22:34:59 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy. That partly explains why FvD is only projected to double its seat total, a far cry from that brief period in May 2019 where it was topping opinion polls or neck and neck with VVD. FvD has been splintering ever since its youth wing was exposed as glorifying mass murderers. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 14, 2021 23:03:59 GMT
Anyway, latest projection shows that a new party, Ja21, will enter the chamber. They're a splinter from the Forum for Democracy. That partly explains why FvD is only projected to double its seat total, a far cry from that brief period in May 2019 where it was topping opinion polls or neck and neck with VVD. FvD has been splintering ever since its youth wing was exposed as glorifying mass murderers. All their MEPs are sitting as independents now, I think. |
|
|
|
Post by greenhert on Jan 15, 2021 11:40:03 GMT
That partly explains why FvD is only projected to double its seat total, a far cry from that brief period in May 2019 where it was topping opinion polls or neck and neck with VVD. FvD has been splintering ever since its youth wing was exposed as glorifying mass murderers. All their MEPs are sitting as independents now, I think. That is correct; they left FvD in April 2020. |
|
|
|
Post by eurofighter! on Jan 15, 2021 12:41:28 GMT
The government has resigned.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
|
Post by The Bishop on Jan 15, 2021 12:57:08 GMT
As I posted upthread, they said just yesterday that would not happen  |
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jan 15, 2021 22:11:06 GMT
Shade.
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 15, 2021 23:00:26 GMT
Jolly good. Presumably now we might see the Hungarian and Polish governments resign over their attempts to fix the judicial system? Or does the Dutch government actually obeying the rule of law - you know, like they said governments should - mean that everyone else is entitled to not bother? |
|
|
|
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jan 15, 2021 23:16:38 GMT
Jolly good. Presumably now we might see the Hungarian and Polish governments resign over their attempts to fix the judicial system? Or does the Dutch government actually obeying the rule of law - you know, like they said governments should - mean that everyone else is entitled to not bother? No. I'm sure it means glass houses and all that. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam in Stroud on Jan 15, 2021 23:44:12 GMT
Jolly good. Presumably now we might see the Hungarian and Polish governments resign over their attempts to fix the judicial system? Or does the Dutch government actually obeying the rule of law - you know, like they said governments should - mean that everyone else is entitled to not bother? No. I'm sure it means glass houses and all that. Except that the Visegrad group, while living in the Tropical House at Kew, have just loaded a stone into the trebuchet and let fly. In the Netherlands the Parliamentary system found the government guilty of abuse of power, and the cabinet duly resigned. Either of those things going to happen in a Visegrad country any time soon? Still, hypocrisy in those governments is the norm. Their argument with Rutte et al is over their unwillingness to toe the EU line. A position that would be entirely justified if they weren't also the biggest net recipients of EU funds. |
|
