Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 15:18:58 GMT
so Sibb what positives do you see from the current large scale immigration in Sweden? |
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jun 20, 2018 15:24:26 GMT
The alt in alt-right stands for altitude.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,029
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Post by Sibboleth on Jun 20, 2018 15:44:00 GMT
so Sibb what positives do you see from the current large scale immigration in Sweden? I don't really see immigration - at a social level - as being automatically or inherently negative or positive, just as something that happens. My comment was specifically addressed at... Basically we can discuss things in a reasonably civilised manner, or we can have the grunting out of idiotic slogans. One or the other really. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 16:06:00 GMT
Sweden turning into a European Brazil = more corruption, Crime, inequality, division and economic problems. For the sake of Sweden I hope SD get enough seats/votes to get into government and reverse the current trends. tbf Brazil are turning into a South American Sweden, their performance over the weekend was rubbish |
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mazuz
Conservative
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Post by mazuz on Jun 20, 2018 16:19:41 GMT
so Sibb what positives do you see from the current large scale immigration in Sweden? I don't really see immigration - at a social level - as being automatically or inherently negative or positive, just as something that happens. My comment was specifically addressed at... Basically we can discuss things in a reasonably civilised manner, or we can have the grunting out of idiotic slogans. One or the other really. What is "idiotic" or "uncivilised" about barctom's assessment? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 16:31:43 GMT
It cannot be denied that the recent massive surge in migration to Sweden has damaged that society, probably irreparably. I’m now seriously questioning whether Sweden, that stereotypically peaceful Nordic Kingdom, will ever be the same again. I fear that it’s becoming like Lebanon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 16:41:09 GMT
On Monday AfD leader Gustav Kasselstrand gave a speech to the nation presenting his vision of what Sweden would look like in 2028 if AfD got into power, I am not sure they are relevant enough at this point to warrant a translation of it's main points, but I found this part slightly funny: – In the year 2028 an architectural renaissance will be flourishing. Classical architecture will be raised, and modern architecture torn down! Not the other way round as today.Love it. Not sure what's funny about it either. Scandinavian architecture is beautiful and Stockholm still has beautiful architecture, yet also so many ugly modernist buildings. One's environment affects one's mood. These modernist buildings could be anywhere: Rotterdam, Dubai, New York, what's the difference? It makes people feel less rooted in their own societies and in their own culture, which might sometimes even have been the purpose behind it. There are important political aspects to this. I am not a fan of modern architecture either. The funny thing is that it is so stereotypical for such a party. Like when the early SD proposed that no new foreign plants and animal species should be allowed into Sweden. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jun 20, 2018 18:27:45 GMT
Love it. Not sure what's funny about it either. Scandinavian architecture is beautiful and Stockholm still has beautiful architecture, yet also so many ugly modernist buildings. One's environment affects one's mood. These modernist buildings could be anywhere: Rotterdam, Dubai, New York, what's the difference? It makes people feel less rooted in their own societies and in their own culture, which might sometimes even have been the purpose behind it. There are important political aspects to this. I am not a fan of modern architecture either. The funny thing is that it is so stereotypical for such a party. Like when the early SD proposed that no new foreign plants and animal species should be allowed into Sweden. Doesn't this echo an 18th (?) Century Swedish philosophy (Cameralism?) which believed that there was no need to import anything as God will have provided everything necessary within its boundaries. Or something. I may be misremembering. (It played a role in the career of Carl Linne.) |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
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Post by mboy on Jun 20, 2018 18:45:31 GMT
I think it's daft to suggest that Sweden is undergoing some kind of moral or social collapse, or will do in the imminent future. What Sweden is doing is falling from the "Nordic Paradise" that people like Polly Toynbee always used to talk about, and it's is falling all the way down to the level of... France, America, and the UK. In the grand scheme of things, that isn't very far, but for those who always opposed this demographic change, it will seem like a catastrophe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 21:04:07 GMT
The YouGov poll conducted 15-18/6 has SD gaining 5.5 points and Centre as the big losers. Liberals and Greens just around the threshold, KD still has a bit to go and there will be hardly any "lend out votes" from M when they are polling that low. A fairly high Other number could mean a couple of points to AfD. The underlying voter movements are likely fairly complex at the moment.
It will be really interesting to see if the internet polls are right this time.
SD 28.5 (+5.5)
Moderates 17.3 (-1.0)
SAP 22.0 (-1.0)
Left Party 9.3 (+0.3)
Centre 7.1 (-3.0)
Liberals 4.3 (+0.1)
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Greens 3.8 (+0.2)
KD 3.1 (+0.1)
FI 1.4 (-0.4)
Others 3.4 (-0.5)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 21:04:39 GMT
I am not a fan of modern architecture either. The funny thing is that it is so stereotypical for such a party. Like when the early SD proposed that no new foreign plants and animal species should be allowed into Sweden. Doesn't this echo an 18th (?) Century Swedish philosophy (Cameralism?) which believed that there was no need to import anything as God will have provided everything necessary within its boundaries. Or something. I may be misremembering. (It played a role in the career of Carl Linne.) Nah, you are right: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameralism |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jun 20, 2018 22:54:18 GMT
Neither do i like to be tactless - i am aware instead, that decadent full-idiots can be found only in the "FirstWorld" these days; nor do i think, that the "IntelligenceQuotient" represents real intelligence (it measures the intellect, i.e. the technical "intelligence", what is rather the opposite of intelligence), let alone a warm heart.
But for technical inventions (leading to economical success) the "IQ" fits and according to Richard Lynn - Vinko Buj and others have similar numbers - Swedes have (or had until recently) 102 and Turks 90, Irani&Iraqui 87, Arabs (WestAsia&NorthAfrica) 84, Blacks (Africa) 67 aso.
But i know, that this is either not true or "cannot be said" or is "racist"...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 11:27:38 GMT
The YouGov poll conducted 15-18/6 has SD gaining 5.5 points and Centre as the big losers. Liberals and Greens just around the threshold, KD still has a bit to go and there will be hardly any "lend out votes" from M when they are polling that low. A fairly high Other number could mean a couple of points to AfD. The underlying voter movements are likely fairly complex at the moment. It will be really interesting to see if the internet polls are right this time. SD 28.5 (+5.5) Moderates 17.3 (-1.0) SAP 22.0 (-1.0) Left Party 9.3 (+0.3) Centre 7.1 (-3.0) Liberals 4.3 (+0.1) ------------ Greens 3.8 (+0.2) KD 3.1 (+0.1) FI 1.4 (-0.4) Others 3.4 (-0.5) I'm sure this has been asked before, but how accurate were they last time? Fairly good, but not great. If you compare their last regular poll made 4-6 days before the election (they also did some exit polls on the days) the difference between the YouGov poll and the result was: M +2.1 SD +1.8 SAP +1.5 KD -1.2 Greens -1.1 Left -1.1 FI -0.9 Liberals -0.8 Centre -0.3 Others -0.1 So they over polled the small parties and underestimated the big ones, though maybe there was a consolidation of the vote behind the big parties in the final days. Apart from the last Sentio poll, which had SD just 0.2 points below their election result, they got closest to the SD result. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 21, 2018 19:22:50 GMT
It cannot be denied that the recent massive surge in migration to Sweden has damaged that society, probably irreparably. I’m now seriously questioning whether Sweden, that stereotypically peaceful Nordic Kingdom, will ever be the same again. I fear that it’s becoming like Lebanon. Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 19:32:33 GMT
It cannot be denied that the recent massive surge in migration to Sweden has damaged that society, probably irreparably. I’m now seriously questioning whether Sweden, that stereotypically peaceful Nordic Kingdom, will ever be the same again. I fear that it’s becoming like Lebanon. Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. is this a parody account, surely no one is this deluded. These migrants have different values, culture and sensitivities (in the sense of violence and sexual harassment towards women). They wish to have Sharia Law, some migrants will be ISIS fighters and supporters. They do not want to integrate, they want Europe to bend to their beliefs and values. Until you realise we are not the problem, but certain migrants not wanting to be part of Western Society are the problem (but are happy to take welfare, housing and free healthcare). The facts of Sweden becoming a more violent, divided and dangerous place is all there for you to see. But you will choose to ignore it and call those like myself racist, xenophobes and any other buzzword while you sit safely in your safe space not having to worry about the future problems the next generation will have to deal with. |
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Andrew_S
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Post by Andrew_S on Jun 21, 2018 19:52:14 GMT
It cannot be denied that the recent massive surge in migration to Sweden has damaged that society, probably irreparably. I’m now seriously questioning whether Sweden, that stereotypically peaceful Nordic Kingdom, will ever be the same again. I fear that it’s becoming like Lebanon. Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. What's the point of having a Social Democratic government if they can't manage migration properly. It ought to be one of their strengths. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 20:23:38 GMT
Sweden integrated lots of foreigners from primarily other European countries during the post-war boom. Back then people were expected to work and to become Swedish, but there was not much in the way of an official integration policy. Things generally worked very well and the descendants of the people that arrived in the 50s, 60s and 70s are Swedish today. Some of the Serbs, Montenegrins and Albanians formed organized crime groups but they were a small minority within their respective groups. Then the Swedish industry started not to need as much unskilled labour and in 1975 multiculturalism became official policy, which neutered the unofficial assimilation pressure. Gradually the Swedish integration machine came to a halt, although many newcomers of course still integrated. You then got immigrant groups that are more culturally alien and less interested in full integration. The mid-60s to mid-70s Million Programme with it's large modernist housing estates was not well suited for integration and from the mid-70s onwards it became filled up with unemployed or underemployed immigrants and the Swedes gradually left many estates or became minorities. A generous welfare system made it possible to live outside the labour market. Once you got these places they have a self-perpetuating effect. In recent years it's the number of migrants has simply become too big, and the Swedish industry has become highly advanced with industrial robots etc. limiting the need for workers. There simply aren't enough unskilled or low skilled jobs on offer. There is a clear comparison to France, which had taken in wave after wave of immigrants throughout more than 150 years and made them French and then suddenly met immigrant groups that weren't prepared to assimilate coinciding with lack of jobs after the oil crisis and geographical isolation in large modernist housing estates. It's both countries that had a tested integration model (in both cases de facto an assimilation model), which then stopped working and they took too long to switch to something else at which point the problems had become too big - and in both countries integration policy is still blurred between different and often conflicting aspirations. |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Jun 21, 2018 22:23:22 GMT
The UN (pages 44 and 45) predicts that Sweden's HDI will fall from 0.949 in 2010 to 0.906 by 2030, behind every other western European country and others including Cuba, Mexico, Costa Rica and Libya(!). This is, of course, the result of mass immigration. If you import the third world, you become the third world. I don't think national suicide is putting it too strongly. Let's hope the Swedes wake up and put a stop to this madness before it's too late. The document you cite is not a UNDP report on the HDI growth trajectories of individual nation-states, but a 2010 research paper for that organisation which seeks to develop "a model of HDI growth" for four separate 'cohorts' of similarly-ranked nations. Indeed, the authors of the paper claim in their introduction that it isn't "designed to be predictive" for any one particular country, but should be interpreted as what might occur "based on a past global experience with HDI growth". The actual country-specific HDI values to which you refer were calculated by taking "projections of the components conducted by agencies that provide the UNDP with data", and using them to come up with independent results separate from the UNDP's official HDI indices. These 'user approach' values are included in the paper primarily as a comparison/control for the projected results of their own 'cohort approach' model - which again supports the claim that the data in the paper should not be used for country-level predictions. Nonetheless, even if one were to use the paper for that purpose, a significant problem with it is that 2010 was the first year in which a new method for evaluating data was used by the UNDP for calculating the HDI. This change had an impact on the overall HDI values produced in the 2010 index: all of the countries at the top end experienced a drop, as new means were calculated for each of the three indicators. More importantly, it also led to considerable differences in the 2010 HDI rankings when compared with 2009: New Zealand went from 20th position to 3rd, for example, while Germany jumped from 22nd to 10th. It's likely that the 'user approach' model the authors devised employed the same statistical methods that were applied by the UNDP prior to this big methodological change, as the HDI values for most countries in the paper correspond roughly to those found in the (pre-change) 2009 HDI index but are nowhere near 2010 values. There is an even greater gap in values/rankings between the paper's projections for 2015 and the actual outcomes found in that year's HDI index*. All of this means, again, that it is problematic to use the data to tell us what the future will hold, and it certainly doesn't mean that it can be cited as a relevant, current prediction by the UN. Looking at Sweden specifically, an HDI value of 0.963 in 2009 became 0.885 under the new methodology in 2010, then 0.907 by 2015 (updated to 0.909 retrospectively in the 2016 report; the UNDP adjust their previous values each year). The country's rank fluctuated from 7th to 9th to 14th. This represents a relative rather than an absolute drop: Sweden's average annual HDI growth rate** from 2010 to 2015 was +0.25%, not terribly impressive by Western European standards but higher than the comparative figures for either Norway (+0.21%) or the UK (+0.16%). In contrast the research paper's projection was a drop from 0.949 in 2010 to 0.941 in 2015, with a concomitant fall in the rankings from 15th to 25th. Leaving aside the fact that the research paper was far more pessimistic about Sweden's HDI ranking at its 2010 base level than the actual UNDP report was, this is still quite a difference. My own suspicion is that the research paper's authors examined the annual HDI growth rate for Sweden from 2000-05, found it to be negative (on the cohort 4 chart on p. 41 there is one downward brown line for that period: I'm willing to presume that is Sweden***), and then used it as a basis both for the initial 2010 figure and the continually downward projections shown over the next twenty years. Now it may well be that Sweden experiences this kind of trajectory in the long term, but the actual indices from 2010-16 - which, I should remind you, collectively show upwards growth - suggest that it has yet to happen. TL;DR: The data in the research paper wasn't meant for predictions, and is based on a model that has now been refined anyway; it bears little resemblance to the actual UNDP HDI tables, not then and certainly not now; Sweden's HDI growth since 2010 has gone upwards, not downwards as the paper's authors suggested it would. All of this should be factored in when using the paper to make assertions.--- * The changes in ranking from 2010 to 2015 will no doubt have been at least partly due to economic circumstances that could not be wholly foreseen - one only has to examine Spain's ranking during this period to see this - but that in itself exemplifies one of the many perils inherent in making even short-term projections. ** This perhaps isn't terribly meaningful, but the annual HDI growth rate is defined by the UNDP as "a smoothed annualized growth of the HDI in a given period, calculated as the annual compound growth rate". *** The UNDP, in its 2010 HDI report, give Sweden's average annual HDI growth rate for the period 2000-10 as -0.4%. This is the only decline for any country in the top 50. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 22, 2018 0:31:56 GMT
The horrifying moment when you realise that knitwear solves crimes but not crime.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 6:32:18 GMT
It cannot be denied that the recent massive surge in migration to Sweden has damaged that society, probably irreparably. I’m now seriously questioning whether Sweden, that stereotypically peaceful Nordic Kingdom, will ever be the same again. I fear that it’s becoming like Lebanon. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Everyone is entitled to be stupid from time to time. Unfortunately you abuse that privilege. |
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