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Post by mrpastelito on Jun 22, 2018 8:45:08 GMT
These migrants have different values, culture and sensitivities (in the sense of violence and sexual harassment towards women). They wish to have Sharia Law, some migrants will be ISIS fighters and supporters. They do not want to integrate, they want Europe to bend to their beliefs and values. Until you realise we are not the problem, but certain migrants not wanting to be part of Western Society are the problem (but are happy to take welfare, housing and free healthcare). That's our terms - to them it's jizyah. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jun 22, 2018 9:45:46 GMT
Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. is this a parody account, surely no one is this deluded. These migrants have different values, culture and sensitivities (in the sense of violence and sexual harassment towards women). They wish to have Sharia Law, some migrants will be ISIS fighters and supporters. They do not want to integrate, they want Europe to bend to their beliefs and values. Until you realise we are not the problem, but certain migrants not wanting to be part of Western Society are the problem (but are happy to take welfare, housing and free healthcare). The facts of Sweden becoming a more violent, divided and dangerous place is all there for you to see. But you will choose to ignore it and call those like myself racist, xenophobes and any other buzzword while you sit safely in your safe space not having to worry about the future problems the next generation will have to deal with. Eh. the main problem with Islam is, like Calvinism, is predestination. You are talking to people on this raised as Christians in this country who were (are) not allowed out to play on the Sabbath, who went to churches that did not recogise Christmas or Easter as anything other than a childrens holiday devoid of any holy meaning. Half the funerals I have been to had no women present at the graveside, until the 60's no women in working class communities went out with their hair uncovered. The Kirk had the right to enter the home and quiz the residents on their knowledge of Scripture, have church trials up until the 1920's that is a short time ago. Not sure what the Anglican and Roman Catholic stances are on church law and courts at the present but some on this forum will be able |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 10:14:23 GMT
Stockholmian, an online radio station and news site providing music & news for "the Persian community in Stockholm" made a poll among their users where 1169 voted. It's of course unscientific, but it's interesting that SD got a whopping 34%. There is little doubt that SD have gained among secular and well-established immigrants. Iranians generally skew right in Scandinavia as they are mostly descendants of secular middle class families with connections to the Shah regime and naturally anti-Islamist. But many have voted for SAP and the Left Party as other immigrant groups.
SD 34%
SAP 28%
M 18%
Left Party 9%
Liberals 3%
Centre 2%
Greens 2%
KD 1%
Don't have the right to vote 3%
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 22, 2018 11:15:03 GMT
Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. is this a parody account, surely no one is this deluded. These migrants have different values, culture and sensitivities (in the sense of violence and sexual harassment towards women). They wish to have Sharia Law, some migrants will be ISIS fighters and supporters. They do not want to integrate, they want Europe to bend to their beliefs and values. Until you realise we are not the problem, but certain migrants not wanting to be part of Western Society are the problem (but are happy to take welfare, housing and free healthcare). The facts of Sweden becoming a more violent, divided and dangerous place is all there for you to see. But you will choose to ignore it and call those like myself racist, xenophobes and any other buzzword while you sit safely in your safe space not having to worry about the future problems the next generation will have to deal with. It is your utter inability to look at people as individuals and not as some kind of amorphous mass that leads you to such conclusions and indeed the responses and assumptions that have been made throughout history with both migrant and non-migrant communities within countries that sow distrust, otherness and a lack of social cohesion. Fundamentally, the driver for just about everybody is that they want the best for their family. Humans are social being so by and large they want to be part of a community and interact with it wherever they live. Nationalists such as yourselves don't understand this or don't care, you take the essentially cosmetic differences between people's base wants and needs and use that as an excuse for barriers between peoples, countries and communities. It is this inability to see beyond labels that makes nationalism in my eyes a destructive, self defeating and ultimately futile ideology. It's also entirely ludicrous as we are all related to each other and we are all migrants ultimately. The regressive nationalism on this thread is entirely depressing and I fear will become more prevalent in tis country as we turn in on ourselves post Brexit which is my biggest reason for thinking it's the biggest act of self harm we have every done as a nation. That, in my mind, would be a bigger betrayal of our historic British values than anything from outside this nation. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 22, 2018 11:19:50 GMT
Pure unadulterated stupidity.If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. Am I wrong? Perhaps. Everyone is entitled to be stupid from time to time. Unfortunately you abuse that privilege. Yes. Comparing Sweden to Lebanon (though I doubt you really know anything about what the situation in Lebanon is actually like) is absolutely stupid. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,925
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 22, 2018 11:21:36 GMT
Am I wrong? Perhaps. Everyone is entitled to be stupid from time to time. Unfortunately you abuse that privilege. Yes. Comparing Sweden to Lebanon (though I doubt you really know anything about what the situation in Lebanon is actually like) is absolutely stupid. Yes, that at least is ridiculous hyperbole and David (who is often a decent poster) should admit as much. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 22, 2018 12:32:33 GMT
Can we all calm down on this thread, please.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 13:18:53 GMT
Can we all calm down on this thread, please. Yes, given that it is about an election with an ongoing campaign it is straying too far off topic and getting into "proxy war" territory. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 22, 2018 14:17:28 GMT
Can we all calm down on this thread, please. Yes, given that it is about an election with an ongoing campaign it is straying too far off topic and getting into "proxy war" territory. I apologise for exacerbating things but there was some increasingly nasty stuff from a number of posters (obviously from my point of view) that was going completely unchallenged so I felt a point of view had to be expressed that did so. Some of the views expressed in this site are getting increasingly sinister. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 14:33:44 GMT
Yes, given that it is about an election with an ongoing campaign it is straying too far off topic and getting into "proxy war" territory. I apologise for exacerbating things but there was some increasingly nasty stuff from a number of posters (obviously from my point of view) that was going completely unchallenged so I felt a point of view had to be expressed that did so. Some of the views expressed in this site are getting increasingly sinister. What’s sinister about pointing out what is happening in Sweden? Just because you don’t like what it is being said, does not mean it is wrong. Plus I feel we are having a healthy debate and I appreciate your thoughtful response to what I have put. If everything was great and mass immigration was not causing any problems then SD would not be on 28% in the latest polls. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 14:41:57 GMT
Yes. Comparing Sweden to Lebanon (though I doubt you really know anything about what the situation in Lebanon is actually like) is absolutely stupid. Yes, that at least is ridiculous hyperbole and David (who is often a decent poster) should admit as much. I obviously unequivocally withdraw any insinuation that Sweden today is like Lebanon, I didn’t mean it to come across as meaning that. That said, I am deeply concerned, and not just about Sweden, of the mass influx of “refugees” into Europe creating segregated communities with almost unbridgeable gaps in values systems, the recent attacks on women, Jews and Gays should be a huge cause for concern. Europe cannot continue to turn a blind eye to those value differences. It cannot be a coincidence that the perps of many of those crimes are these alleged refugees. I also want to make it abundantly clear that I do not support the SD, although I used to before I became more familiar with Sweden, but the Liberals in Sweden due to the SD’s extreme ethnocentric rhetoric. Which I’d have thought with my recent clashes with others on the topic of race would show that I have no, despite some inferences in recent months, racial or religious animus towards anyone. Therefore if Khunanup was in part referring to me, I have no idea what’s sinister about that. To Devil Wincarnate and @vintris, I just wanted to respond fully. That will be my last post on this off track subject in this thread. |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,825 
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jun 23, 2018 10:06:41 GMT
Western (inner)cities are already these days ThirdWorld-slums, NoGoAreas for the police, where all kind of gangs have implemented their own law&order. (Decades ago i was shocked by the situation south&east of TowerBridge, nowadays the same can be found in my town.)
Semi(tribal) wars - as in Lebanon - are (to a rather small extent) going on presently and will be inevitable.
What was all predicted by Jewish MilitaryHistorian M.v.Creveld 30 years ago.
Some in Germany&Austria consider emigrating to EastEurope...
The final reason is, that mankind has been very much reduced to primitive animality.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 23, 2018 11:13:34 GMT
The final reason is, that mankind has been very much reduced to primitive animality Erm, if you say so. There are, in reality, very few genuine "no go" areas in the UK. |
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Post by AdminSTB on Jun 23, 2018 11:36:34 GMT
The final reason is, that mankind has been very much reduced to primitive animality Erm, if you say so. There are, in reality, very few genuine "no go" areas in the UK. I'm not entirely convinced there are any. There are some areas where I might be wary in the evenings or at night, but I can't think of anywhere in my city where I wouldn't go leafleting or door-knocking if asked. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jun 26, 2018 12:26:04 GMT
Erm, if you say so. There are, in reality, very few genuine "no go" areas in the UK. I'm not entirely convinced there are any. There are some areas where I might be wary in the evenings or at night, but I can't think of anywhere in my city where I wouldn't go leafleting or door-knocking if asked. Also true of Sweden, I think. And those areas which have less than pleasant reputations these days in most cases had such a reputation long before immigrants arrived in sufficient numbers. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 13:11:42 GMT
In fact all bar two of my colleagues are either Nigerian, Arab or Iranian. By far most are self made men. They didn't need government help to integrate they just got on with making their lives in a new country and accepting their new countries norms. My prof escaped the bloody Iranian revolution with little money again with no government help finds himself running a large department after a succesful career in industry. My Spanish is terrible now but when I spent my mapping project there I made it my job to learn Spanish and learn their culture. So much so I ended up dating a local. It is not bloody hard thing to do or expect people who move into a country to do so. The same applies to British expats in Spain, they should learn the language and local norms. Your spot on SP, what annoys natives is the lack of willingness from a large proportion of migrants to want to integrate and learn the customs of their new home. They want to continue with their customs and laws, but get all the free stuff the West has to offer. If the West said you can come here but your getting bugger all in government help and you will have to go home if you haven’t found a job in 3 months I wonder how many would come over. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,716
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Post by mboy on Jun 27, 2018 13:42:22 GMT
Most would still come because they would gamble that they could get that job.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 27, 2018 14:34:11 GMT
Pure unadulterated stupidity. If you had any clue what was going on in Sweden you would know that the issue isn't immigration, but the utterly pathetic way the government of all hues has gone about engaging, intergrating and valuing migrants. I'll give you a clue, they've done virtually nothing. Migrants feel completely isolated, forgotten about and marginalised. Excluded and considered completely other. After being ostensibly welcomed being effectively left to rot is hardly a way to effectively manage a migrant population and encourage effective engagement into wider society. It's as if they took all the bad examples of post war UK & French etc immigration from colonies/former colonies in terms of integration and followed them to the letter. Genius. When my Roma great great grand parents came to this country at the Begining of the 20th century they couldn't speak a word of English. Within 6 months my great great grandfather could speak English and got himself a job training to be a gas engineer. He didn't need a government to support him to learn tge language or learn our customs. In fact the first person my uncle employed in his construction company was a Sikh man, like all northerners will recognise I call him uncle,uncle Das. He came to Manchester as a baby to parents who could hardly speak English. They learnt English pretty damn quickly and didn't need the help of the government to do so nor to learn our customs or way of live and more then make a positive contribution to this great city. Das is just turning 60's and still working for my uncle. Whooooooossssshhhhh..... |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Jun 29, 2018 23:03:24 GMT
I took this "who should I vote for quiz" created by Expressen, a Swedish tabloid this evening with a bunch of friends. Most of them came out as Västerpartiet or Feministiskt Initiativ. I was interested to see that I had most in common with Liberalerna. I was also interested so see that they all had higher percentages of Sverigedemokraterna than I did, in fact of all the parties I matched them the least. I guess it's because they were more keen on various aspects of their (non-immigration) social policies than I was. Regardless, I still plan to vote for Centerpartiet come September. www.expressen.se/nyheter/val-2018/osaker-infor-valet-2018--gor-valkompassen/ Google translate will get you through of most of it if you want to have a go, though there are a few questions that are hard to answer without a good knowledge of Swedish society/infrastructure |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 30, 2018 9:03:18 GMT
I matched best wit the Liberals on 68% but only just ahead of the Moderates on 67% and SDs on 65%. They don't seem to have Alternative but I would almost certainly vote SD. I had Centre, Christian Democrats and Socialists all at around 50% and various far -left parties at around 30% (Left party, Greens and Feminists)
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