mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,764
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Post by mboy on Jun 2, 2018 9:48:54 GMT
if they can get away from posturing, starting rows for the sake of it and passing on blame for Italian problems onto outsiders The record of populists on this one isn't great though - it's how they operate, isn't it... |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 3, 2018 18:32:13 GMT
if they can get away from posturing, starting rows for the sake of it and passing on blame for Italian problems onto outsiders The record of populists on this one isn't great though - it's how they operate, isn't it... Sure. That's 90% of my problem with them. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 3, 2018 18:42:40 GMT
Agree on much of that. The "populists" have earnt their right to have a go and the mainstream parties have earnt their place in opposition. I still think the proposals of lower taxes and universal incomes are going to be tricky to reconcile but I can see that a simpler tax system and bolstering lower incomes might increase tax revenue. I'm glad that I'm not in the country conducting the experiment, but it could be very instructive and should be observed without prejudice. I think their attitude to the EU could be instructive to the latter too - if they can get away from posturing, starting rows for the sake of it and passing on blame for Italian problems onto outsiders then the basic premise that the EU needs to be less restrictive, less dismissive of southern Europe, and generally shaken up is probably healthy. I'm less fussed about immigration than you are from a UK POV but I can see more of a case for it in Italy due to them being on the front-line of immigration from North Africa and due to the economic pull not really being Italy at all. It's a disproportionate problem for them and there is much less of a compensating benefit. On the whole I think they'll screw up but I don't think it will be a bad thing if they succeed. As you say, it may be difficult to keep some of the promises they've made and balance the books. Personally I hope that they can tackle youth unemployment. Since the financial crisis youth unemployment has shot up, peaking at nearly 45% in 2014; it's now about 33%. It's absolutely devastating to have mass unemployment, and the corrosive social effects go far beyond the economy. I think a little short-term economic pain to fix that will be worth it in the long run. There's certainly plenty Italy could do to improve its situation while remaining in the euro, but it will always run up against the logic of being inside a currency that is too strong for its economy. I expect there will be some fireworks between Italy and the EU, but these will likely be mostly for show, and eventually they'll settle down into a decent working relationship. I may be completely wrong about that, of course! I don't know how many of their promises the electorate even expect them to keep, with populism it seems that sometimes the point is to register that you've noticed the pain and care about it, not specific solutions. If e.g. they sorted youth unemployment maybe they'd be forgiven for quietly dumping lots of the rest. Especially if the other sorties aren't offering anything better. My guess is that you're right on your last para. Clearly there's a whole load of tensions between the euro and certain economies, especially in the Club Med. I feel at some point there'll be a resolution but it could go lost of different ways - collapse of euro, two-speed EU, Club Med economies aligning better with the north, northern EU loosening the fiscal discipline....My best guess is that apocalyptic collapse is less likely than constructive muddle and fudge and a sort of organic convergence of the two sides. Ultimately the shit hit the fan in the euro due to external factors especially in the US - if those aren't repeated then the scope to keep tinkering away (like microsoft issuing patches and updates) is extended. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 6, 2018 10:24:17 GMT
Graun reports that Forza Italia won't be voting in favour of the new cabinet in the lower house. Presumably the Fratelli will.
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Post by Antiochian on Jun 6, 2018 10:32:17 GMT
Graun reports that Forza Italia won't be voting in favour of the new cabinet in the lower house. Presumably the Fratelli will. What's the Italian for "sour grapes"? |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Jun 6, 2018 11:40:29 GMT
Graun reports that Forza Italia won't be voting in favour of the new cabinet in the lower house. Presumably the Fratelli will. What's the Italian for "sour grapes"? Hardly unreasonable for a party not in government to vote against the governing parties cabinet. |
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Post by beesknee5 on Jun 6, 2018 12:23:41 GMT
As you say, it may be difficult to keep some of the promises they've made and balance the books. Personally I hope that they can tackle youth unemployment. Since the financial crisis youth unemployment has shot up, peaking at nearly 45% in 2014; it's now about 33%. It's absolutely devastating to have mass unemployment, and the corrosive social effects go far beyond the economy. I think a little short-term economic pain to fix that will be worth it in the long run. There's certainly plenty Italy could do to improve its situation while remaining in the euro, but it will always run up against the logic of being inside a currency that is too strong for its economy. I expect there will be some fireworks between Italy and the EU, but these will likely be mostly for show, and eventually they'll settle down into a decent working relationship. I may be completely wrong about that, of course! Italy in the early 90s, before they joined the euro had Unemployment between 11-12% and youth unemployment around 30% The cheap credit leading up to the financial crash and the aftermath may have skewed expectations. I'm looking forward to seeing the basic income put in place and hopefully some reform of the euro. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050 
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Post by middyman on Jun 6, 2018 12:46:09 GMT
Graun reports that Forza Italia won't be voting in favour of the new cabinet in the lower house. Presumably the Fratelli will. What's the Italian for "sour grapes"? E tutta invidia! There should be an accent on the “e” but I have no idea how that is done on an iPad. |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 6, 2018 13:22:27 GMT
What's the Italian for "sour grapes"? E tutta invidia! There should be an accent on the “e” but I have no idea how that is done on an iPad. Éèėęêēë I'm on my iPad and I can get accents by holding down on the letter for about a second (instead of just clicking on it) whereupon a menu of different possible accents appears. It is very useful (sometimes easier to do accents on the iPad than on the main PC) but it is not perfect because it doesn't have the Romanian S-cedilla or the Esperanto čšhgj circumflex letters. Ãåāàáâäæ čçć įìíîïī łñń õøōœòôöó šßś ūùûüúŵŷżžź |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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Post by middyman on Jun 6, 2018 13:48:00 GMT
E tutta invidia! There should be an accent on the “e” but I have no idea how that is done on an iPad. Éèėęêēë I'm on my iPad and I can get accents by holding down on the letter for about a second (instead of just clicking on it) whereupon a menu of different possible accents appears. It is very useful (sometimes easier to do accents on the iPad than on the main PC) but it is not perfect because it doesn't have the Romanian S-cedilla or the Esperanto čšhgj circumflex letters. Ãåāàáâäæ čçć įìíîïī łñń õøōœòôöó šßś ūùûüúŵŷżžź Thanks. I’ll give it a go |
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Post by Andrew_S on Jun 6, 2018 19:51:36 GMT
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Post by Antiochian on Jun 6, 2018 21:56:45 GMT
Amusing piece.. particularly Channel4 referring to Juncker's comments as being "post-prandial".. ooooh, low blow...  |
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Post by Andrew_S on Jun 7, 2018 19:33:38 GMT
"Europe Elects
@europeelects
Italy, SWG poll:
M5S-EFDD: 31% (+1)
LEGA-ENF: 27% (-1)
PD-S&D: 19%
FI-EPP: 9% (+1)
FdI-*: 4%
LeU-S&D: 2% (-1)
+E-ALDE: 2%
PaP-LEFT: 2%
Ncl-*: 1%
Field work: 30/05/18 – 4/06/18
Sample size: 1,500"
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312
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Post by maxque on Jun 8, 2018 17:40:44 GMT
Creepy than 58% of Italians are voting for United Russia,
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Post by Antiochian on Jun 8, 2018 18:24:37 GMT
Creepy than 58% of Italians are voting for United Russia, Not really.. they are voting for an Italy that is a sovereign state... the Russia thing is purely for its annoyance value.. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312
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Post by maxque on Jun 8, 2018 18:29:41 GMT
Creepy than 58% of Italians are voting for United Russia, Not really.. they are voting for an Italy that is a sovereign state... the Russia thing is purely for its annoyance value.. Russia is the biggest threat to the Western world. I really hope we won't habe to return to the 50's, where the CIA had to use foul play to stop countries from falling into the Eastern Block. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 19:02:20 GMT
Creepy than 58% of Italians are voting for United Russia, After engineering the Brexit vote and securing Trump's election, they've gone made the Italians vote for M5S and Lega. Just when will their malevolence end?! Had to do something to prove they're still in the game after they spectacularly failed to rig both the French presidential election and the German Bundestag election. Though they did do a good job at securing the reelection of Milos Zeman by compromising Drahos, but that is small fry. With the Russians back in the big league I expect them to deliver a big win for Jair Bolsonaro and the GOP to increase their congressional majority against all odds in November. |
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Post by Antiochian on Jun 8, 2018 19:27:14 GMT
After engineering the Brexit vote and securing Trump's election, they've gone made the Italians vote for M5S and Lega. Just when will their malevolence end?! Had to do something to prove they're still in the game after they spectacularly failed to rig both the French presidential election and the German Bundestag election. Though they did do a good job at securing the reelection of Milos Zeman by compromising Drahos, but that is small fry. With the Russians back in the big league I expect them to deliver a big win for Jair Bolsonaro and the GOP to increase their congressional majority against all odds in November. And it used to be the Right who spent all their time on conspiracy theories....  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 12:52:31 GMT
Not really.. they are voting for an Italy that is a sovereign state... the Russia thing is purely for its annoyance value.. Russia is the biggest threat to the Western world. I really hope we won't habe to return to the 50's, where the CIA had to use foul play to stop countries from falling into the Eastern Block. I must of imagined the Islamic Terrorists killing thousands of innocent people. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,312
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Post by maxque on Jun 10, 2018 20:59:32 GMT
Russia is the biggest threat to the Western world. I really hope we won't habe to return to the 50's, where the CIA had to use foul play to stop countries from falling into the Eastern Block. I must of imagined the Islamic Terrorists killing thousands of innocent people. There is a risk of Russia taking control of the governments in most Western countries through their infiltration in many Western political parties. No way Islamics ever manage that, and even if they did, I count on your side to rise up violently against them. |
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