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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 9:30:36 GMT
Go on believing that..... then you'll be doubly surprised (and unprepared) when it happens. I mean, that's what the referendum was about. If people voted for other reasons, that's their choice, but it wasn't the question on the ballot. And they made their choice... if you want to believe that this was purely constitutional then be prepared when an election happens for some sort of Awkward Squad government being elected led by Grillo and then do not be surprised to see a Euro referendum as the prime topic of conversation, then do not be surprised if Italy votes to leave the currency bloc and then do not be surprised if Greece, Portugal and Spain do the same. A win/win for all concerned except those with grandiose visions in Brussels/Frankfurt. The intriguing thought struck me in light of Schuable's comments in recent days that he might just cut Greece loose and boot them out of the Euro "pour encourager les autres". |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2016 9:44:52 GMT
I mean, that's what the referendum was about. If people voted for other reasons, that's their choice, but it wasn't the question on the ballot. And they made their choice... if you want to believe that this was purely constitutional then be prepared when an election happens for some sort of Awkward Squad government being elected led by Grillo and then do not be surprised to see a Euro referendum as the prime topic of conversation, then do not be surprised if Italy votes to leave the currency bloc and then do not be surprised if Greece, Portugal and Spain do the same. A win/win for all concerned except those with grandiose visions in Brussels/Frankfurt. The intriguing thought struck me in light of Schuable's comments in recent days that he might just cut Greece loose and boot them out of the Euro "pour encourager les autres". Well, I believe voted against something, but not against EU (I believe most people just don't care about it), but against Renzi. Opposition parties didn't say "vote no to oppose EU", but "vote no to kick Renzi out". I have doubts about a referendum, since it would have to pass Senate and due to the voting system, it will be 1/3 of seats for each bloc for the foreseeable future and would have issues passing (especially if the 2/3 constituonal majority is needed). Ironically, the referendum passing would have helped that issue, by weakening Senate. |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 10:01:48 GMT
And they made their choice... if you want to believe that this was purely constitutional then be prepared when an election happens for some sort of Awkward Squad government being elected led by Grillo and then do not be surprised to see a Euro referendum as the prime topic of conversation, then do not be surprised if Italy votes to leave the currency bloc and then do not be surprised if Greece, Portugal and Spain do the same. A win/win for all concerned except those with grandiose visions in Brussels/Frankfurt. The intriguing thought struck me in light of Schuable's comments in recent days that he might just cut Greece loose and boot them out of the Euro "pour encourager les autres". Well, I believe voted against something, but not against EU (I believe most people just don't care about it), but against Renzi. Opposition parties didn't say "vote no to oppose EU", but "vote no to kick Renzi out". I have doubts about a referendum, since it would have to pass Senate and due to the voting system, it will be 1/3 of seats for each bloc for the foreseeable future and would have issues passing (especially if the 2/3 constituonal majority is needed). Ironically, the referendum passing would have helped that issue, by weakening Senate. Read what I said... I am talking about Euro, not EU. The Italian economy is being crushed by the single currency and the EU is something they still seem to find very attractive. Nuances! |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2016 10:10:06 GMT
Well, I believe voted against something, but not against EU (I believe most people just don't care about it), but against Renzi. Opposition parties didn't say "vote no to oppose EU", but "vote no to kick Renzi out". I have doubts about a referendum, since it would have to pass Senate and due to the voting system, it will be 1/3 of seats for each bloc for the foreseeable future and would have issues passing (especially if the 2/3 constituonal majority is needed). Ironically, the referendum passing would have helped that issue, by weakening Senate. Read what I said... I am talking about Euro, not EU. The Italian economy is being crushed by the single currency and the EU is something they still seem to find very attractive. Nuances! Well, you can take what I wrote and replace EU by Euro and it's still true. I understand Euro is quite problematic, but I still issues believing a return to almost worthless lira would be popular. |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 10:18:52 GMT
Read what I said... I am talking about Euro, not EU. The Italian economy is being crushed by the single currency and the EU is something they still seem to find very attractive. Nuances! Well, you can take what I wrote and replace EU by Euro and it's still true. I understand Euro is quite problematic, but I still issues believing a return to almost worthless lira would be popular. I don't replace words in other people's quotes. The Euro and EU are far from being the same and if I was wading into the dichotomy between the two I would at least want to be able to discriminate between one and the other. "Worthless lira"? Who says it will be at the same exchange rate that it went into the Euro? It could start out at 10 "new" lira to the Euro. I am not expecting forum posters to understand international currency pricing but frankly a lot of Italian industry would love a "worth less" currency to operate in... |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 5, 2016 11:24:24 GMT
Renzi is staying on as party leader, no? If so that makes the Cameron comparison not wholly accurate.
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 5, 2016 11:39:23 GMT
Italians living in UK Turnout: 37.6% (87.593 out of 232.932) YES 50.353 NO 29.956 Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. And this is the increasingly large 5th Column we are saddled with in Britain that could gradually get onto our registers and distort our politics even more. The Labour Party is already far too dependent on foreigners and one generation removed foreigners to keep hold of its declining number of seats. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Dec 5, 2016 12:47:02 GMT
Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. And this is the increasingly large 5th Column we are saddled with in Britain that could gradually get onto our registers and distort our politics even more. The Labour Party is already far too dependent on foreigners and one generation removed foreigners to keep hold of its declining number of seats. You might want to tell my grandmother that she's supposed to vote Labour- as far as I am aware she has only ever voted Conservative since arriving from Piemonte in 1946. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 5, 2016 13:08:05 GMT
Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. Well, despite what press is saying in UK, the referendum was about reforming the Senate and giving more power to the Executive. Nothing at all related to EU. Well most of the people commenting about this know practically nothing about Italian politics so have to rationalise the referendum as being about the EU/Euro in order that it can fit it in with their very limited world view. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Dec 5, 2016 13:17:49 GMT
Italians living in Ireland go to the opposition direction of Italians living in UK
Yes 2,073 votes
No 2,868 votes
turnout: 49.5%
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 5, 2016 13:39:09 GMT
And this is the increasingly large 5th Column we are saddled with in Britain that could gradually get onto our registers and distort our politics even more. The Labour Party is already far too dependent on foreigners and one generation removed foreigners to keep hold of its declining number of seats. You might want to tell my grandmother that she's supposed to vote Labour- as far as I am aware she has only ever voted Conservative since arriving from Piemonte in 1946. The many exceptions who don't register, don't vote and who don't vote Labour, do not invalidate my generalist point Arthur. And Piedmont is so close to our 'other realms' temporarily designated as 'France' that I obviously regard her as family anyway! I don't see foreigners as 'supposed to vote Labour' but as a sector that self-evidently often does so. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Dec 5, 2016 17:07:35 GMT
Italians living in Ireland go to the opposition direction of Italians living in UK Yes 2,073 votes No 2,868 votes turnout: 49.5% If I am not mistaken Andrea you live in Italy. So, what did you vote, always assuming you had one? An unconvinced YES. |
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 5, 2016 20:51:20 GMT
And this is the increasingly large 5th Column we are saddled with in Britain that could gradually get onto our registers and distort our politics even more. The Labour Party is already far too dependent on foreigners and one generation removed foreigners to keep hold of its declining number of seats. You might want to tell my grandmother that she's supposed to vote Labour- as far as I am aware she has only ever voted Conservative since arriving from Piemonte in 1946. Arm wrestling match between Carlton and Arthur Figgis's granny. Place your bets please. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 20:58:45 GMT
You might want to tell my grandmother that she's supposed to vote Labour- as far as I am aware she has only ever voted Conservative since arriving from Piemonte in 1946. Arm wrestling match between Carlton and Arthur Figgis's granny. Place your bets please. My money is on the Italian granny. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Dec 5, 2016 21:28:50 GMT
And with your presumably close knowledge of Italian politics, what do you think will happen next? Now Renzi has delayed his resignations for a few days. They need to get the budget through by the end of the year. Next, Mattarella probably don't want to go back to polls so soon. He will try to get a new government somehow, until spring. Padoan (current economic minister) or Grasso (Senate speaker) are mentioned. And they are all talking about changing the electoral law. Because the one introduced by Renzi last year is not liked by anyone now and because this new law is limited to the House. As in Renzi's plan the Senate would have been heavily modified becoming not directly elected, they didn't propose to extend it to the Senate. So now the electoral law for the Senate is still the old one of 2013 elections while for the House the new 2015 one would be used. Renzi will probably like to go back to polls soon though. Leaving it late with a "technic" government would help Grillo. |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 7, 2016 22:54:52 GMT
We maybe need a thread for the next Italian parliamentary elections as it could soon be coming down the track.
There is a fascinating article in today's Daily Telegraph which is an interview with Lega Norte's finance spokesman who is no part-time comedian but instead a Professor at a Milan university, who is ex-both Deutsche Bank and Merrill Lynch and he explains how he will take Italy out of the Euro and create a new currency maybe called the Florin.. Beyond that though he muses that the best thing is Germany exiting the Euro rather than Italy. Provocative stuff. However, he makes some good arguments for how the Italians can distance themselves from the Euro (though it seems the Bundesbank gets to take a Euro 700 bn hit in the process.. Merely a paper transaction.. LoL
The key is not whether this would work but whether the combo of the Lega and 5Star, which currently command around 44% approval, can persuade the public it will work.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Dec 7, 2016 23:53:40 GMT
There is a fascinating article in today's Daily Telegraph which is an interview with Lega Norte's finance spokesman who is no part-time comedian but instead a Professor at a Milan university, who is ex-both Deutsche Bank and Merrill Lynch and he explains how he will take Italy out of the Euro and create a new currency maybe called the Florin. Where? ' Norte' is the Spanish word for north. This is a thread about Italy. The referendum this past weekend was not about Italy's membership of the euro. |
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Post by johnloony on Dec 8, 2016 2:02:35 GMT
If I am not mistaken Andrea you live in Italy. So, what did you vote, always assuming you had one? An unconvinced YES. I saw a photo of the ballot paper with a big "Si" and "No", but no boxes next to them. If you want to vote Yes, do you put an X on "Si", or a circle round "Si", or scribble out the "No", or what? |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 8, 2016 8:33:47 GMT
There is a fascinating article in today's Daily Telegraph which is an interview with Lega Norte's finance spokesman who is no part-time comedian but instead a Professor at a Milan university, who is ex-both Deutsche Bank and Merrill Lynch and he explains how he will take Italy out of the Euro and create a new currency maybe called the Florin. Where? ' Norte' is the Spanish word for north. This is a thread about Italy. The referendum this past weekend was not about Italy's membership of the euro. The referendum was about a whole lot of things, overtly and subliminally. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on Dec 8, 2016 22:18:46 GMT
I saw a photo of the ballot paper with a big "Si" and "No", but no boxes next to them. If you want to vote Yes, do you put an X on "Si", or a circle round "Si", or scribble out the "No", or what? A cross over SI. As shown here at 0:35 (it's for a previous referendum and it's the same): |
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