mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,706
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Post by mboy on Dec 5, 2016 0:16:12 GMT
Maybe if the Govt had proposed serious reforms that weren't an obvious assault on democracy, and which wouldn't have turned the Upper house into a den of cronies, them maybe the public might have taken it all more seriously.
Note to European establishments: stop being dicks.
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Post by AdminSTB on Dec 5, 2016 0:17:33 GMT
I don't think that the comparison works. Renzi called a referendum because he actually wanted to make changes to the constitution where as Cameron called a referendum because of an election pledge that he didn't expect to have to honour. Also Cameron lied that he wouldn't resign if the result didn't go his way. I wouldn't go so far to say Cameron is no Renzi but on the surface Renzi appears the more honourable of the two. I do wonder sometimes how different the June referendum result might have been if Cameron had said he would resign. Perhaps by claiming otherwise, it strengthened the chances of a Remain win. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 5, 2016 0:21:46 GMT
...and which wouldn't have turned the Upper house into a den of cronies Er... that is exactly what it is presently. Though tbh he should have proposed the outright abolition of the grotesque thing rather than neutering it... Though there's no doubt that proposing reforms that increase the power of the executive and putting them up for election is a bit courageous when you aren't a popular PM anymore (he's not hated either, of course, just no longer popular) but then up until this point luck had always run his way. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 5, 2016 0:22:40 GMT
Italian voter logic: We want to stick it to the establishment and the politicians who aren't listening to us and the system that gets nothing done. Let's vote to keep the establishment and dysfunctional system intact and help keep 215 of those politicians who don't listen to us in power! Vote for change! Vote no! |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 5, 2016 0:24:04 GMT
Anyway Renzi going doesn't even automatically mean fresh elections let alone all of the other things people in the British papers have been wittering about. Wait and see...
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Post by AdminSTB on Dec 5, 2016 0:26:11 GMT
Renzi is only 41 years old. That must be an exceptionally young age for an ex Prime Minister of any nation.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 5, 2016 0:36:19 GMT
Renzi is only 41 years old. That must be an exceptionally young age for an ex Prime Minister of any nation. It is indeed, though in Italy Giovanni Goria (1987-88) was 44 when he was ousted. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Dec 5, 2016 0:39:45 GMT
Renzi is only 41 years old. That must be an exceptionally young age for an ex Prime Minister of any nation. He's certainly young compared to the average Italian voter who may be as old as 50-55. The electorate is nearly 51 million out of a population of 60 million. In the UK the respective figures are 46 million and 65 million. Those figures show how relatively old the electorate is in Italy. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 1:15:36 GMT
Worth noticing for the eurosceptics on here that this result could actually make it harder for Italy to leave the EU since it leaves a powerful Senate that could veto any parliamentary push for a referendum or legal withdrawl, and ditches a reform that would have made citizen-initiated referendums easier.
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Post by independentukip on Dec 5, 2016 2:02:20 GMT
Worth noticing for the eurosceptics on here that this result could actually make it harder for Italy to leave the EU since it leaves a powerful Senate that could veto any parliamentary push for a referendum or legal withdrawl, and ditches a reform that would have made citizen-initiated referendums easier. I didn't think either M5S or the Lega wanted out of the EU which, if correct, doesn't leave much avenue for withdrawlists. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 2:05:45 GMT
Worth noticing for the eurosceptics on here that this result could actually make it harder for Italy to leave the EU since it leaves a powerful Senate that could veto any parliamentary push for a referendum or legal withdrawl, and ditches a reform that would have made citizen-initiated referendums easier. I didn't think either M5S or the Lega wanted out of the EU which, if correct, doesn't leave much avenue for withdrawlists. If the reform had gone through a citizen initiated referendum would have been a possibility. There are minorities in both parties that want out. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,772
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Post by andrea on Dec 5, 2016 7:38:15 GMT
Italians living in UK
Turnout: 37.6% (87,593 out of 232,932)
YES 50,353
NO 29,956
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 8:27:35 GMT
He makes Farage seem consistent.
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 8:39:45 GMT
This could be very interesting now. E40Bn recapitalisation of Italian banks on the cards. Possible referendum on Italian Euro membership. All sounds like fun to me There will have to be a constitutional change before a referendum on the Euro AFAIK. Just as entering into the Euro did way back when? Where did you read this? What date did an Italian referendum to join the Euro take place? It seems like the Euro is a lobster trap that you can enter without support of the populace or legislative/constitutional backing but you cannot exit it on the same basis. Indeed I would suspect that leaving the Euro doesn't require a referendum at all, just getting a law passed. It maybe foolish for a 5Star-led government to do it without a popular vote but the Europhiles attempting to thwart a popular vote rarely ends well. What about an indicative referendum and the passing a law based on the outcome? |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 8:42:36 GMT
Italians living in UK Turnout: 37.6% (87.593 out of 232.932) YES 50.353 NO 29.956 Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2016 8:58:01 GMT
There will have to be a constitutional change before a referendum on the Euro AFAIK. Just as entering into the Euro did way back when? Where did you read this? What date did an Italian referendum to join the Euro take place? It seems like the Euro is a lobster trap that you can enter without support of the populace or legislative/constitutional backing but you cannot exit it on the same basis. Indeed I would suspect that leaving the Euro doesn't require a referendum at all, just getting a law passed. It maybe foolish for a 5Star-led government to do it without a popular vote but the Europhiles attempting to thwart a popular vote rarely ends well. What about an indicative referendum and the passing a law based on the outcome? It's mainly that it doesn't enter in the list of things that Constitution allows a referendum on (which are pretty much only amending Constitution and citizen initiatives repealing an existing law). In 1989, when they wanted a referendum on their commitment to European integration, they had to make a special law to allow it (and then, it could only be consultative). It also was a constitutional law, which means if they fail to get 2/3 of the votes in parliament, a referendum would be needed to allow the referendum. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2016 9:02:19 GMT
Italians living in UK Turnout: 37.6% (87.593 out of 232.932) YES 50.353 NO 29.956 Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. Well, despite what press is saying in UK, the referendum was about reforming the Senate and giving more power to the Executive. Nothing at all related to EU. |
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Post by Antiochian on Dec 5, 2016 9:08:03 GMT
Nice one... Good to see Italians who have fled telling the 38% of Italian youth that are unemployed in Euro-induced misery that they should have a stiff-upper lip and carry on with the lost cause of that benighted currency. Well, despite what press is saying in UK, the referendum was about reforming the Senate and giving more power to the Executive. Nothing at all related to EU. Go on believing that..... then you'll be doubly surprised (and unprepared) when it happens. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 9:08:41 GMT
The above which is why the Euro is back trading at its previous levels. There is the prospect of more than a few tottering banks as @armchair Critic alludes to, that is what should concentrate minds now.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2016 9:11:08 GMT
Well, despite what press is saying in UK, the referendum was about reforming the Senate and giving more power to the Executive. Nothing at all related to EU. Go on believing that..... then you'll be doubly surprised (and unprepared) when it happens. I mean, that's what the referendum was about. If people voted for other reasons, that's their choice, but it wasn't the question on the ballot. |
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