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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Sept 29, 2016 16:34:44 GMT
Ok, without looking anything up...
From what I recall, under the the current Italian political system, ministries require the confidence of both the Senate and the lower house of parliament (Chamber of Deputies?) in order to function; this created a bit of a problem at the last parliamentary election as the centre-left Democratic Party won in the lower house, but Berlusconi's party (forget its name, People of Freedom?) led in the Senate, thus creating deadlock that was only broken by a grand-coalition agreement. This proposal, if I got this right, will make it so that only the support of the lower house is required to run a ministry, and that the Senate will also see reduction in numbers (down to 100, from what I recall). If that's the case, it sounds like a much needed change that's a long time coming if you ask me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 17:50:47 GMT
I see no reason why any non-Italian would support a "no". Unless you somehow had an interest in Italy not functioning.
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
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Post by peterl on Sept 30, 2016 9:37:05 GMT
As for CNEL, "The CNEL is an advisory body of the Government, the Parliament, the Regions and the Autonomous Provinces which -upon their own request - are provided with opinions on economic and social subjects."
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
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Post by Foggy on Oct 1, 2016 3:08:07 GMT
Latest opinion polls  The thought of anyone voting No seems almost unfathomable until you remember that Renzi has staked his political future on his personal popularity carrying an all-or-nothing referendum. Look how that worked out for Call Me Dave... The second and third most popular reasons for voting Yes ('reduce the number of legislators'/'cut the cost of politics') are basically the same. I find it extraordinary that 11% of those polled say these reforms "won't make the state more efficient". There was a televised debate between Renzi and a former head of the Constitutional Court on this subject last night. |
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tim
UKIP
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Post by tim on Nov 17, 2016 22:43:17 GMT
I found the below paragraph from the reuters article particularly amazing. They are going to have a referendum on proposals which apparently are n't even finalised!
With the anti-system 5-Star Movement now ahead in opinion polls, Renzi apparently also shares such concerns and said on Thursday that if he wins the Dec. 4 referendum he would seek to further revise the electoral law.
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 17, 2016 23:45:51 GMT
I voted NO.
I am fairly sure that is how some of my friends and neighbours in Italy will vote.
The new proposals are an interim sop and a facilitation of the left winning power and the denial of parties they want to suppress. If there is to be a reforming of the Constitution it needs to be wider and more thorough than this.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 17, 2016 23:48:02 GMT
Regardless of the result, I dread more attention being paid to the appalling Grillo and his acolytes.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Nov 18, 2016 1:09:53 GMT
I see no reason why any non-Italian would support a "no". Unless you somehow had an interest in Italy not functioning.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 20:33:46 GMT
I voted NO. I am fairly sure that is how some of my friends and neighbours in Italy will vote. The new proposals are an interim sop and a facilitation of the left winning power and the denial of parties they want to suppress. If there is to be a reforming of the Constitution it needs to be wider and more thorough than this. If NO wins (in which case they keep the clause that the Senate will have to give confidence to the government) and assuming Renzi resigns, there'd be a Camera dei deputati electoral law that guarantee a majority to one party, but a Senate law that means three parties almost equally split the seats, so no governability and infinite elections, unless the NO parties/alliances (M5S, centre-right, the PD left-wing, left) can somehow agree on a new Senate electoral law... (but we all know the likelihood of that happening..). Welcome to Greece 2.0! |
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 18, 2016 20:47:46 GMT
I voted NO. I am fairly sure that is how some of my friends and neighbours in Italy will vote. The new proposals are an interim sop and a facilitation of the left winning power and the denial of parties they want to suppress. If there is to be a reforming of the Constitution it needs to be wider and more thorough than this. If NO wins (in which case they keep the clause that the Senate will have to give confidence to the government) and assuming Renzi resigns, there'd be a Camera dei deputati electoral law that guarantee a majority to one party, but a Senate law that means three parties almost equally split the seats, so no governability and infinite elections, unless the NO parties/alliances (M5S, centre-right, the PD left-wing, left) can somehow agree on a new Senate electoral law... (but we all know the likelihood of that happening..). Welcome to Greece 2.0! Perhaps that will concentrate minds and lead to a more conclusive election result? Then a new constitution can be drawn up. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 18, 2016 20:54:37 GMT
I see no reason why any non-Italian would support a "no". Unless you somehow had an interest in Italy not functioning. And yet you can see reasons why Italians might support "no" ? Clearly large numbers of them do and presumably they should have more concern about the functioning of Italy, And if the vote No they will affect the actual outcome as opposed to us taking part in an internet poll which has no effect on anything? If the consequences are likely to be so dire, why do so many Italians support "no"? I have voted No in this poll, purely because that appears to be in line with the wishes of my political allies in Italy |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 21:54:14 GMT
There is a legitimate worry that the constitutional reform combined with the current electoral law means giving whichever party wins full control over policy. Considering what parties could win the next elections, that is indeed something to be worried of, but the alternative is worse.
The Italian political system suffers from three main defects:
- a weak government
- an inefficient parliament (thanks in large part to the silly idea of perfect bicameralism)
- lack of cohesive parties
These ailments are reinforced by:
- the ignorance of the electorate (partly due to the quality of the media)
- the utter inability of the Italian political class
A more efficient government and parliament are the main goals of the constitutional reform. Without that its hard to see improvement in the other fields.
Given how Italian politics (mal)function there isn't any realistic hope of a grand, perfect constitutional reform. The Senate needs to be fixed first. As so often "perfect is the enemy of good".
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Nov 18, 2016 23:54:00 GMT
A more efficient government and parliament are the main goals of the constitutional reform. Without that its hard to see improvement in the other fields. Given how Italian politics (mal)function there isn't any realistic hope of a grand, perfect constitutional reform. The Senate needs to be fixed first. As so often "perfect is the enemy of good". Except that I don't even see any part of these reforms that looks imperfect! Granted, they are not as comprehensive as many would like (which is the excuse Carlton is pretending to hide behind), but all are welcome and desirable. The only reason for an Italian to vote No is if they want Renzi gone, so the least they could do is be honest about that. The only reason for a non-Italian to do so is the one you have already stated. |
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 19, 2016 1:43:42 GMT
A more efficient government and parliament are the main goals of the constitutional reform. Without that its hard to see improvement in the other fields. Given how Italian politics (mal)function there isn't any realistic hope of a grand, perfect constitutional reform. The Senate needs to be fixed first. As so often "perfect is the enemy of good". Except that I don't even see any part of these reforms that looks imperfect! Granted, they are not as comprehensive as many would like (which is the excuse Carlton is pretending to hide behind), but all are welcome and desirable. The only reason for an Italian to vote No is if they want Renzi gone, so the least they could do is be honest about that. The only reason for a non-Italian to do so is the one you have already stated. I never pretend. I never hide. That is most unusual, but there you go. I don't like these proposals. I don't think they are the answer to anything. I would vote against them because they are not the answer and because they would damage 'my side' and grant too much power to the next winners. The structural, inefficiency, nepotic, corrupt and traditional faults in the system are not addressed. |
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
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Post by cibwr on Nov 19, 2016 18:16:41 GMT
To me a reform of the Senate is long over due but I loath the idea of a winning bonus to create a majority in the lower house for the largest party and the clawing back to the centre of powers from the regions.
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 19, 2016 18:28:59 GMT
To me a reform of the Senate is long over due but I loath the idea of a winning bonus to create a majority in the lower house for the largest party and the clawing back to the centre of powers from the regions. It's a tricky one isn't it. You could argue the first was slightly unnecessary these days as parties do seem to be getting stronger in Italian politics but the senate is too large and often used (as Lord Twaddleford said) for obstruction pure and simple, and the latter doesn't sound like a good idea but regional corruption is a big problem. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 19, 2016 18:40:03 GMT
To me a reform of the Senate is long over due but I loath the idea of a winning bonus to create a majority in the lower house for the largest party and the clawing back to the centre of powers from the regions. We've been here before of course en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerbo_Law |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Nov 19, 2016 19:10:34 GMT
Except that I don't even see any part of these reforms that looks imperfect! Granted, they are not as comprehensive as many would like (which is the excuse Carlton is pretending to hide behind), but all are welcome and desirable. The only reason for an Italian to vote No is if they want Renzi gone, so the least they could do is be honest about that. The only reason for a non-Italian to do so is the one you have already stated. I never pretend. I never hide. That is most unusual, but there you go. I don't like these proposals. I don't think they are the answer to anything. I would vote against them because they are not the answer and because they would damage 'my side' and grant too much power to the next winners. The structural, inefficiency, nepoti[sti]c, corrupt and traditional faults in the system are not addressed. Fine, I accept that you are using this reasoning sincerely, but I still do not find this line of argument sound or a legitimate reason to use your right as an EU citizen to vote No. This argument would be levelled against any governing party that tries to get rid of perfect bicameralism. The Westminster system does not involve an upper house with equal powers, so why are you defending that system in the case of Italy?? Many of these things are addressed by the reforms, but obviously not fully solved. Much of the corruption would not be eradicated even by a 'perfect' new Constitution as that has always been carried out by extralegal means in any case. Yes, I often call that a 'Mediterranean majority bonus' since the only other countries I'm aware of that use a variant on this system currently are Greece and Malta (though the Maltese version is very mild and exists simply to prevent a wrong-winner result under STV), but the Italians can take the dubious honour of having invented it for nefarious purposes. Fifteen of the regions have very few and insignificant powers anyway. A referendum on making Italy a federation (but also a more Presidential republic) failed some years ago under Berlusconi. |
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
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Post by cibwr on Nov 20, 2016 11:24:59 GMT
On the other hand other regions have substantial autonomy and the autonomy of the other regions were growing. Corruption is not solved by concentrating power but by transparency.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,035
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 20, 2016 18:32:12 GMT
The old (and in Italy it is old) 'Vote for Change, Vote No' problem.
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