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Post by Merseymike on Feb 28, 2017 15:00:39 GMT
Why should I vote for either of two candidates who I fundamentally disagree with - Macron for his liberal economics, LePen for her social views? But in the event of not liking candidates surely it is normal and even necessary to opt for plan B in order to at least prevent the candidate you not only 'don't like' but feel to be a danger to the state and civil society? For instance, if Trump had been a populist red neck Democrat might you not have voted for say a Kaysich Republican as an antidote to a loud mouth wall builder and Muslim excluder and Hispanic deporter? Are you so wedded to purity that an unpalatable second best is not worth it and putting up with something worse is preferable because it preserves personal integrity and not being under taint of involvement? It has nothing to do with party - but there has to be something positive for me to vote for. I am as opposed to liberal market economics as I am to racism. If our next election was only a choice of a Blairite or Ukip then I would abstain. I would vote in the first round, but if it was between Macron and LePen I think the old adage 'don't vote, it only encourages them' holds true.
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Tony Otim
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Post by Tony Otim on Feb 28, 2017 15:12:51 GMT
Now Jadot has withdrawn, i would probably vote for Macron in the first round. Not sure I would be exactly enthusiastic, but faced with the alternnatives... Why not a self proclaimed eco-socialist like Hamon? He would be a lot closer to Jadot than Macron is. Because at the moment it doesn't look like he stands a chance of making the run-off. Having been denied my first choice, the vote would of necessity be a compromise. If I did a detailed comparison it may well be that I was closer to Hamon, but as the vote would be a compromise to some degree anyway, it would also be a tactical one and I would vote against the prospect of a Le Pen - Fillon run off, which is a prospect I would definitely want to avoid.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 28, 2017 16:04:25 GMT
But in the event of not liking candidates surely it is normal and even necessary to opt for plan B in order to at least prevent the candidate you not only 'don't like' but feel to be a danger to the state and civil society? For instance, if Trump had been a populist red neck Democrat might you not have voted for say a Kaysich Republican as an antidote to a loud mouth wall builder and Muslim excluder and Hispanic deporter? Are you so wedded to purity that an unpalatable second best is not worth it and putting up with something worse is preferable because it preserves personal integrity and not being under taint of involvement? It has nothing to do with party - but there has to be something positive for me to vote for. I am as opposed to liberal market economics as I am to racism. If our next election was only a choice of a Blairite or Ukip then I would abstain. I would vote in the first round, but if it was between Macron and LePen I think the old adage 'don't vote, it only encourages them' holds true. Would you be quite as content to see a Le Pen elected as a Macron? Seriously, you think both are bad and neither shall have prizes with my involvement? Isn't that a bit on the other-worldly precious side of life. Even a bit narcissistic? A sort of if it is not substantially to my liking I reject it all completely and put a plate on my vehicle stating 'Don't Blame Me I Didn't Vote At All'!! Are you not then more culpable for the bad things that happen than those who did engage in an attempt to make the best of a bad job?
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polupolu
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Post by polupolu on Feb 28, 2017 16:11:54 GMT
The "old adage" would be more correct if it said "Don't vote - then they can ignore you".
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Post by mrpastelito on Feb 28, 2017 16:12:38 GMT
I think the fact that Macron is basically a French Blair, who was a Labour PM, makes it surprising that a Labour activist wouldnt be able to choose between a prot-fascist and a clone of a former Labour PM. Especially as Merseymike has always been known as a fervent dyed-in-the-wool Blairite!
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Feb 28, 2017 16:20:04 GMT
I know he's not a Blairite, but he's a Labourite.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Feb 28, 2017 18:45:15 GMT
I think the fact that Macron is basically a French Blair, who was a Labour PM, makes it surprising that a Labour activist wouldnt be able to choose between a prot-fascist and a clone of a former Labour PM. Especially as Merseymike has always been known as a fervent dyed-in-the-wool Blairite! At one stage, he actually was!
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 28, 2017 18:54:21 GMT
It has nothing to do with party - but there has to be something positive for me to vote for. I am as opposed to liberal market economics as I am to racism. If our next election was only a choice of a Blairite or Ukip then I would abstain. I would vote in the first round, but if it was between Macron and LePen I think the old adage 'don't vote, it only encourages them' holds true. Would you be quite as content to see a Le Pen elected as a Macron? Seriously, you think both are bad and neither shall have prizes with my involvement? Isn't that a bit on the other-worldly precious side of life. Even a bit narcissistic? A sort of if it is not substantially to my liking I reject it all completely and put a plate on my vehicle stating 'Don't Blame Me I Didn't Vote At All'!! Are you not then more culpable for the bad things that happen than those who did engage in an attempt to make the best of a bad job? Not. I have frankly become quite sceptical about the idea that voting for the lesser of two evils is a worthwhile activity. I agree with Le Pen's economic policy far more than Macron's but clearly her views in other matters mark her out as a non starter. Macron's modernising liberal economics remind me of Blair's approach and you know my views on that.
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 28, 2017 18:56:29 GMT
Especially as Merseymike has always been known as a fervent dyed-in-the-wool Blairite! At one stage, he actually was! I wouldn't go quite that far but I liked the original ideas of modernisation as portrayed by Bryan Gould et al. But I have moved considerably to the left since then
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 28, 2017 18:57:45 GMT
The "old adage" would be more correct if it said "Don't vote - then they can ignore you". And you think they don't? For all I dislike Trump he does at least seem bothered about the people who voted for him
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john07
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Post by john07 on Feb 28, 2017 23:00:09 GMT
The "old adage" would be more correct if it said "Don't vote - then they can ignore you". And you think they don't? For all I dislike Trump he does at least seem bothered about the people who voted for him Are you joking?
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 28, 2017 23:14:13 GMT
And you think they don't? For all I dislike Trump he does at least seem bothered about the people who voted for him Are you joking? Let me rephrase that. He is doing what he said he was going to do. I may not agree with it but it makes such a change from the usual excuses and backsliding. I would very much like a Labour PM to have the same determination.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Feb 28, 2017 23:24:11 GMT
A fair point.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Feb 28, 2017 23:48:30 GMT
Let me rephrase that. He is doing what he said he was going to do. I may not agree with it but it makes such a change from the usual excuses and backsliding. I would very much like a Labour PM to have the same determination. Like he was going to 'take on Wall Street' but ends up packing his cabinet with Wall Street fat cats. You get the prize for childish naivity for falling for that crap.
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 1, 2017 9:12:18 GMT
Sums up why Clinton and the globalising centrists failed to get why some voted for him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 9:57:17 GMT
Fillon has been summoned by the judges, and Penelope Fillon is being held for questioning.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Mar 1, 2017 10:11:18 GMT
The French legal system is different to ours, so I'm unsure how "routine" this is.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Mar 1, 2017 10:53:28 GMT
Press conference in 10 minutes, the rumour is than he would drop out to be replaced by someone else.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 11:00:02 GMT
Press conference in 10 minutes, the rumour is than he would drop out to be replaced by someone else. A Sarko protégé?
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Mar 1, 2017 11:01:55 GMT
Press conference in 10 minutes, the rumour is than he would drop out to be replaced by someone else. A Sarko protégé? Most likely not, the Juppé wing of the party wouldn't allow it.
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