Pretty Maps

[Pete Whitehead]

And I'm saying that you can't say they would as there are individuals who will have voted Green because they support the Greens over green issues who may not have voted for an explicit Remain ticket - there are probably Lib Dem voters who voted Lib Dem in this election who would not have done (did J.G.Harston for example vote Lib Dem in this election), likewise Plaid voters and so on

[syorkssocialist]

Never implied otherwise.

[Deleted]

May 28, 2019 15:11:19 GMT syorkssocialist said:

Some of the boundaries are a mess because I had to draw them myself, but here is a map of the top party in each authority if LD + GRN + SNP + PLC + CHUK vote was combined as part of a Remain Alliance.

Yellow = Remain Alliance

Blue = Brexit Party

Red = Labour

Funny? I don't remember seeing Remain Alliance on the ballot

[ccoleman]

Good grief guys, it’s just a map someone did for their own entertainment. Lighten up.

[timmullen1]

May 28, 2019 23:45:38 GMT ccoleman said:

Good grief guys, it’s just a map someone did for their own entertainment. Lighten up.

You might have to explain “lighten up” to some around here.

[Andrew_S]

Live and let map.

[carlton43]

May 28, 2019 23:45:38 GMT ccoleman said:

Good grief guys, it’s just a map someone did for their own entertainment. Lighten up.

But it has been published here and we have a Forum habit of careful analysis and of nit picking!

This is so deeply flawed that it has to be challenged.

This is an alliance in the head of the map maker who combines the totals of a group of disparate parties where a proportion of their voters will be Leavers of some sort and no account is being taken of that, and it would alter the map.

The BP area represents only that party and none of the other overtly Brexit parties nor the Conservative Party vote which was at least partially Brexit. And indeed part of the Labour vote would be Brexit.

This map is not just deeply flawed but deeply biased in concept and intent.

[yellowperil]

May 29, 2019 7:46:05 GMT carlton43 said:

May 28, 2019 23:45:38 GMT ccoleman said:

Good grief guys, it’s just a map someone did for their own entertainment. Lighten up.

But it has been published here and we have a Forum habit of careful analysis and of nit picking!

This is so deeply flawed that it has to be challenged.

This is an alliance in the head of the map maker who combines the totals of a group of disparate parties where a proportion of their voters will be Leavers of some sort and no account is being taken of that, and it would alter the map.

The BP area represents only that party and none of the other overtly Brexit parties nor the Conservative Party vote which was at least partially Brexit. And indeed part of the Labour vote would be Brexit.

This map is not just deeply flawed but deeply biased in concept and intent.

I love the map as it is , but accept it could be improved if UKIP votes are added to Brexit to get a more realistic  balance between hard Brexit and hard Remain.

[Pete Whitehead]

Here's an interesting map with no spin. Straightforward Conservative vs Labour. Surprisingly predictable results all things considered. Looks like a general election result from the 1950s

[timmullen1]

May 29, 2019 8:04:28 GMT yellowperil said:

May 29, 2019 7:46:05 GMT carlton43 said:

But it has been published here and we have a Forum habit of careful analysis and of nit picking!

This is so deeply flawed that it has to be challenged.

This is an alliance in the head of the map maker who combines the totals of a group of disparate parties where a proportion of their voters will be Leavers of some sort and no account is being taken of that, and it would alter the map.

The BP area represents only that party and none of the other overtly Brexit parties nor the Conservative Party vote which was at least partially Brexit. And indeed part of the Labour vote would be Brexit.

This map is not just deeply flawed but deeply biased in concept and intent.

I love the map as it is , but accept it could be improved if UKIP votes are added to Brexit to get a more realistic  balance between hard Brexit and hard Remain.

Agreed; given that the “Remain Alliance” consists of those Parties who campaigned specifically on a Remain/pro-second referendum platform it would be logical to add UKIP, and probably the Conservatives, to the Brexit Party totals. Labour’s position was so ambiguous that it’s justified to keep them separate, although there is ample polling evidence to indicate that a large majority back Remain. Trying to claim that the map is worthless because not everybody who voted Lib Dems or Greens backed Remain or Labour/Conservative voters could be split misses the point that it is based on the stated position of said Party, not the motivation of its voters for which, to my knowledge, we only have Lord Ashcroft‘s poll as guidance.

[ccoleman]

May 29, 2019 7:46:05 GMT carlton43 said:

May 28, 2019 23:45:38 GMT ccoleman said:

Good grief guys, it’s just a map someone did for their own entertainment. Lighten up.

But it has been published here and we have a Forum habit of careful analysis and of nit picking!

This is so deeply flawed that it has to be challenged.

This is an alliance in the head of the map maker who combines the totals of a group of disparate parties where a proportion of their voters will be Leavers of some sort and no account is being taken of that, and it would alter the map.

The BP area represents only that party and none of the other overtly Brexit parties nor the Conservative Party vote which was at least partially Brexit. And indeed part of the Labour vote would be Brexit.

This map is not just deeply flawed but deeply biased in concept and intent.

He never claimed that everyone who voted for those parties are Remainers and I think we all know that isn’t the case. It is simply a hypothetical alliance of all explicitly pro-Remain parties. There was no implication beyond that other than what you’re imagining.

Just take the map for what it is - a bit of fun. 

[carlton43]

May 29, 2019 9:33:38 GMT ccoleman said:

May 29, 2019 7:46:05 GMT carlton43 said:

But it has been published here and we have a Forum habit of careful analysis and of nit picking!

This is so deeply flawed that it has to be challenged.

This is an alliance in the head of the map maker who combines the totals of a group of disparate parties where a proportion of their voters will be Leavers of some sort and no account is being taken of that, and it would alter the map.

The BP area represents only that party and none of the other overtly Brexit parties nor the Conservative Party vote which was at least partially Brexit. And indeed part of the Labour vote would be Brexit.

This map is not just deeply flawed but deeply biased in concept and intent.

He never claimed that everyone who voted for those parties are Remainers and I think we all know that isn’t the case. It is simply a hypothetical alliance of all explicitly pro-Remain parties. There was no implication beyond that other than what you’re imagining.

Just take the map for what it is - a bit of fun. 

That is fine and all we do is largely 'a bit of fun', but if that hypothetical alliance is proposed then the match should not be a single party but the alliance of opposites with Conservative+UKIP+BP. 

And that changes the map.............And the fun!

[ccoleman]

May 29, 2019 9:49:49 GMT carlton43 said:

May 29, 2019 9:33:38 GMT ccoleman said:

He never claimed that everyone who voted for those parties are Remainers and I think we all know that isn’t the case. It is simply a hypothetical alliance of all explicitly pro-Remain parties. There was no implication beyond that other than what you’re imagining.

Just take the map for what it is - a bit of fun. 

That is fine and all we do is largely 'a bit of fun', but if that hypothetical alliance is proposed then the match should not be a single party but the alliance of opposites with Conservative+UKIP+BP. 

And that changes the map.............And the fun!

I suppose the difference there is that the kind of Brexit being offered by the Tories and BP are quite a bit different. The Tories are obviously explicitly for Brexit but not a no-deal Brexit, at least not yet (depends who takes over). There is really only one thing that unites the Lib Dems and the Greens and that’s their blatant opposition to any sort of Brexit. Remaining is always the same but leaving isn’t. This muddies the picture even more.

But as I said, don’t take it too seriously.   We could sit here all day trying to decipher the support for Remain or Leave but we just don’t know for sure. 

[Adam in Stroud]

May 29, 2019 9:55:10 GMT ccoleman said:

May 29, 2019 9:49:49 GMT carlton43 said:

That is fine and all we do is largely 'a bit of fun', but if that hypothetical alliance is proposed then the match should not be a single party but the alliance of opposites with Conservative+UKIP+BP. 

And that changes the map.............And the fun!

I suppose the difference there is that the kind of Brexit being offered by the Tories and BP are quite a bit different. The Tories are obviously explicitly for Brexit but not a no-deal Brexit, at least not yet (depends who takes over). There is really only one thing that unites the Lib Dems and the Greens and that’s their blatant opposition to any sort of Brexit. Remaining is always the same but leaving isn’t.

But as I said, don’t take it too seriously.   We could sit here all day trying to decipher the support for Remain or Leave but we just don’t know for sure. 

No.

• LDs have a long-standing commitment to environmental issues that may not be as deep as the Greens but goes back to before there were Greens
  
• Both parties have a commitment to localism both as a way of doing politics (forced on us by the political system,) and as a requirement of democracy and good government (voluntary)
  
• Both mildly left of centre. Greens bit more authoritarian and nannyish but only to achieve their fundamental aim - as individuals they tend to social liberalism.
• Both sceptical about Big Business and Big Government
• Both reject left-right binary politics as a strait-jacket.

[ccoleman]

May 29, 2019 10:06:07 GMT Adam in Stroud said:

May 29, 2019 9:55:10 GMT ccoleman said:

I suppose the difference there is that the kind of Brexit being offered by the Tories and BP are quite a bit different. The Tories are obviously explicitly for Brexit but not a no-deal Brexit, at least not yet (depends who takes over). There is really only one thing that unites the Lib Dems and the Greens and that’s their blatant opposition to any sort of Brexit. Remaining is always the same but leaving isn’t.

But as I said, don’t take it too seriously.   We could sit here all day trying to decipher the support for Remain or Leave but we just don’t know for sure. 

No.

• LDs have a long-standing commitment to environmental issues that may not be as deep as the Greens but goes back to before there were Greens
  
• Both parties have a commitment to localism both as a way of doing politics (forced on us by the political system,) and as a requirement of democracy and good government (voluntary)
  
• Both mildly left of centre. Greens bit more authoritarian and nannyish but only to achieve their fundamental aim - as individuals they tend to social liberalism.
• Both sceptical about Big Business and Big Government
• Both reject left-right binary politics as a strait-jacket.

That’s fair enough, I concede to superior knowledge. I have always put the Greens considerably to the left of the Lib Dems.

[Adam in Stroud]

May 29, 2019 10:08:06 GMT ccoleman said:

May 29, 2019 10:06:07 GMT Adam in Stroud said:

No.

• LDs have a long-standing commitment to environmental issues that may not be as deep as the Greens but goes back to before there were Greens
  
• Both parties have a commitment to localism both as a way of doing politics (forced on us by the political system,) and as a requirement of democracy and good government (voluntary)
  
• Both mildly left of centre. Greens bit more authoritarian and nannyish but only to achieve their fundamental aim - as individuals they tend to social liberalism.
• Both sceptical about Big Business and Big Government
• Both reject left-right binary politics as a strait-jacket.

That’s fair enough, I concede to superior knowledge. I have always put the Greens considerably to the left of the Lib Dems.

Generally yes, but then left v right is not the prime issue for either us or the Greens.

I'd say the left-right spread between most Greens and most LDs is no more than between Orange Bookers and LD social democrats and less the between the wings within either Labour or Conservative parties.

EDIT: peterl and hedgehog are probably too right wing to fit in the LDs!

[The Bishop]

I would say "too right wing" is the wrong way of putting it - but I still know what you mean.

[yellowperil]

I was happy to add UKIP in with Brexit, but I would not accept The Tories in that axis- they belong with Labour in the wishy-washy middle

[syorkssocialist]

I don't know why you're all getting so worked up, I just saw someone suggest an alliance between those parties and wanted to see what the map might look like, assuming they received the exact same votes as they did at the EU Parliament election.

There obviously was no alliance, it wasn't a referendum and I never meant to imply that every LD/Green/etc voter would have still voted for a joint Remain ticket.

Had the England & Wales map been full of Remain party wins partly due to a heavily split pro-Brexit vote, I would have done the exact opposite.
I wasn't trying to make a political point, after all I posted a map in the Scotland thread showing which council areas a combined Conservative + Brexit Party ticket could have won.
But I guess in future I'll just keep this kind of fun on my hard drive.

[timmullen1]

May 29, 2019 12:55:48 GMT syorkssocialist said:

I don't know why you're all getting so worked up, I just saw someone suggest an alliance between those parties and wanted to see what the map might look like, assuming they received the exact same votes as they did at the EU Parliament election.

There obviously was no alliance, it wasn't a referendum and I never meant to imply that every LD/Green/etc voter would have still voted for a joint Remain ticket.

Had the England & Wales map been full of Remain party wins partly due to a heavily split pro-Brexit vote, I would have done the exact opposite.
I wasn't trying to make a political point, after all I posted a map in the Scotland thread showing which council areas a combined Conservative + Brexit Party ticket could have won.
But I guess in future I'll just keep this kind of fun on my hard drive.

Don’t let the OCD know it all’s discourage you; the more “normal” folk here that don’t think of themselves as the spawn of David Butler knew what you were trying to do and appreciate the effort.