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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Jun 8, 2020 16:48:40 GMT
I sometimes think members of Labour, Lib Dems and Greens don't want to understand that there is a gap in the market for a new party when the Conservatives become Centerist. To me this party would stand on a platform Nationalism Free Market Tax and Benefit Reform Law and Order Vote Reform (against its general inclination) Work hard, keep your cash Be Lazy, be poor. It appeals to many, especially when those seen as feckless are revolting. the Conservatives are not going to become centrist any time soon.
Well they're not on the right currently.
They are not helping themselves by being all over the place.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 16:53:07 GMT
Were I to register a "Reform Party" before Farage, that'd be a lark, eh.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 8, 2020 16:53:17 GMT
A more valid criticism of the Greens is not that they are an extreme deep ecologist outfit (because they're not), but that they tend to prefer performativity over policy, get elected largely through LibDem-style community politics, and are full of the kind of well-meaning middle-class people who aren't really as radical as they think they are. If one regards that as a criticism rather than a strength, that is; I make no comment either way. To be frank, I think they have turned into the radical wing of the LibDems! That is not necessarily a criticism, but I think they lost a lot of their left wing/red-green people to Labour, and I suppose it depends how many decide to return.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 8, 2020 16:58:02 GMT
It doesn't entirely surprise me that a Johnson-led Conservative party doesn't have a very clear ideology. He has never been a conviction politician and has always carried ideology lightly. I always felt that the left really made a mistake by trying to portray him as a hard-right ideologue, racist, homophobic etc. Sure he wrote a couple of rather silly comments in newspaper columns but thats his writing and journalistic style - he always was irreverent - and surely his own lifestyle pretty much suggests that hes no cultural conservative? As Tories go, he is socially liberal, I don't think he could have been elected in London otherwise
The point is that with a different electoral system we would undoubtedly have more parties, but while we have the current electoral system, it is very hard for any new party to break through. Enough have tried and got nowhere.
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Post by froome on Jun 8, 2020 17:24:20 GMT
A more valid criticism of the Greens is not that they are an extreme deep ecologist outfit (because they're not), but that they tend to prefer performativity over policy, get elected largely through LibDem-style community politics, and are full of the kind of well-meaning middle-class people who aren't really as radical as they think they are. If one regards that as a criticism rather than a strength, that is; I make no comment either way. To be frank, I think they have turned into the radical wing of the LibDems! That is not necessarily a criticism, but I think they lost a lot of their left wing/red-green people to Labour, and I suppose it depends how many decide to return. We're really not Merseymike but that's not a discussion I'm getting into here. We lost a lot of the members who like to float around from party to party every few years. A bit too topical for this thread methinks.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
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Post by peterl on Jun 8, 2020 17:52:24 GMT
If you are really interested, go away and read our manifesto. Nobody needs to read your silly little manifesto to understand the evil that lies at the heart of green ideology. You openly describe yourself as supporting "selfish individualism" and call my ideology evil? What a joke!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 18:02:49 GMT
As if a word as childish as evil is a credible critique of mainstream British politics
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 8, 2020 18:09:18 GMT
As if a word as childish as evil is a credible critique of mainstream British politics I listen to true crime podcasts as a hobby. Trust me, "evil" is not a childish term.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 8, 2020 18:18:18 GMT
To be frank, I think they have turned into the radical wing of the LibDems! That is not necessarily a criticism, but I think they lost a lot of their left wing/red-green people to Labour, and I suppose it depends how many decide to return. We're really not Merseymike but that's not a discussion I'm getting into here. We lost a lot of the members who like to float around from party to party every few years. A bit too topical for this thread methinks. Inevitable. Partisan dealignment has been a thing for a while, and I think it is likely to increase further
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Jun 8, 2020 18:26:56 GMT
To be frank, I think they have turned into the radical wing of the LibDems! That is not necessarily a criticism, but I think they lost a lot of their left wing/red-green people to Labour, and I suppose it depends how many decide to return. We're really not Merseymike but that's not a discussion I'm getting into here. We lost a lot of the members who like to float around from party to party every few years. A bit too topical for this thread methinks. Brexit has made the pro-eu Greens the radical pro-eu Liberal Democrats. There is actually room for a true green party now that the greens have chosen to priorise European membership over green policies.
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Post by lackeroftalent on Jun 8, 2020 18:27:05 GMT
I have long since grown bored and tired of the gormless "evil tories" that far too much of the Labour Party and it's supporters indulge in.
I certainly won't give any time to anyone trying to state that the Green Party and what it and its supporters want is "evil".
I campaign to get greens elected because I am convinced that they are trying to make a better world for all and that Green politics are the best way to achieve it. I am sure that goes for the vast majority of posters on this forum of all persuasions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 18:35:21 GMT
As if a word as childish as evil is a credible critique of mainstream British politics I listen to true crime podcasts as a hobby. Trust me, "evil" is not a childish term. as do I actually. I recommend Serial and Undisclosed. There is genuine evil but when we talk about the pros and cons of the party manifesto it is childish
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 8, 2020 18:49:40 GMT
I listen to true crime podcasts as a hobby. Trust me, "evil" is not a childish term. as do I actually. I recommend Serial and Undisclosed. There is genuine evil but when we talk about the pros and cons of the party manifesto it is childish Serial is good. I recommend Case File, Crime Junkie and Trace Evidence. I like the ones that narrate what happened, and I am absolutely fascinated by the unsolved ones. Especially those of missing people who just vanished.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Jun 8, 2020 18:59:57 GMT
Nobody needs to read your silly little manifesto to understand the evil that lies at the heart of green ideology. You openly describe yourself as supporting "selfish individualism" and call my ideology evil? What a joke! Individualism is fundamentally virtuous whereas regressive Green ideology seeks an end to thousands of years of human development. PS: The wording of my "status" is exactly what the Tories rejected in their 2017 manifesto.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 8, 2020 19:30:00 GMT
Use more imagination. Try to get away from the right wing mindset that most people are a problem rather than an asset. There is more than enough energy available from sun, wind and sea to provide all our energy needs if we were to put the effort into harnessing them. Once you've got the energy issue sorted everything else is easy, ultimately almost everything is energy when you come down to it (modern agriculture has been described as the process of turning oil into food.) If done properly it would also involve massive improvements in quality of life (90% of buildings put up since 1900 would aesthetically be improved by having green walls and a green roof put on them; almost everyone would be healthier if eating less meat, more and better fruit and vegetables, health and general enjoyment of life massively improved by elimination of air and noise pollution from petrol vehicles; higher construction standards would give us better homes; etc etc.) What it would take is humungous investment in research and in infrastructure. But that does not necessarily involve lower living standards since the investment would be pumped into the economy. All those methods require usage of resources. Farmland has been turn into solar and wind energy farms, what happens when we require more farmland to increase food production? Also with food production, you can only grow crops in season and will need to import crops from aboard creating more CO2, unless we find a way of harnessing an unlimited energy source like hydrogen. Unfortunately Adam, you live in a mindset of endless growth, which for me is not desirable or the end goal. It's nothing we being right wing, there are so many variables that need to change and I dont see it being possible without reduction in the global population. If you are set against endless growth you are doing a bit more than defecting from the Conservative Party, you are going to have to turn your back on the whole of capitalism. Personally I look to stabilisation rather than eternal growth. But you are severely over-pessimistic about the need for more land for food production. Hydroponics, vertical farming, synthetic protein - these are not science fiction, they are all based on current technology - and given cheap energy can exponentially expand food production. Then there are experimental projects such as using solar power to desalinate sea water, bringing desert areas into cultivation (these things are being built in the Middle East right now, we'll have to see if they work.) A lot of Green thinkers are looking to reduce the amount of land under cultivation by moving away from a meat-based diet, meat production as currently practised being highly inefficient in land use. I'm at risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish and none of this is possible without immense investment, but honestly there are some really exciting developments going on out there, we'll have to see if there is the will to implement them. The key to it is getting more hard-nosed capitalists on board.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 8, 2020 20:03:24 GMT
I listen to true crime podcasts as a hobby. Trust me, "evil" is not a childish term. as do I actually. I recommend Serial and Undisclosed. There is genuine evil but when we talk about the pros and cons of the party manifesto it is childish You also wisely limited your statement to mainstream politics, and British at that.
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Post by tonygreaves on Jun 8, 2020 21:18:01 GMT
I sometimes think members of Labour, Lib Dems and Greens don't want to understand that there is a gap in the market for a new party when the Conservatives become Centerist. To me this party would stand on a platform Nationalism Free Market Tax and Benefit Reform Law and Order Vote Reform (against its general inclination) Work hard, keep your cash Be Lazy, be poor. It appeals to many, especially when those seen as feckless are revolting. Oh some of us understand only too well. And if it angles itself in an appropriate way there will be all the people to vote for it who used to vote Labour (and elsewhere) and went UKIP then Brexit Party then, in December, Conservative. It is very difficult to see how the present government can satisfy the needs of the towns etc in the former industrial and mining areas. Once disillusioned with their new homes (and people get disillusioned quickly nowadays) they are there for the picking for a new right wing populist/nationalist/ditch the lot party which pretends to be in the centre and is actually to the right of the Tories. All it will need is a popular and charismatic leader. It's all very frightening.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 21:24:12 GMT
I sometimes think members of Labour, Lib Dems and Greens don't want to understand that there is a gap in the market for a new party when the Conservatives become Centerist. To me this party would stand on a platform Nationalism Free Market Tax and Benefit Reform Law and Order Vote Reform (against its general inclination) Work hard, keep your cash Be Lazy, be poor. It appeals to many, especially when those seen as feckless are revolting. Oh some of us understand only too well. And if it angles itself in an appropriate way there will be all the people to vote for it who used to vote Labour (and elsewhere) and went UKIP then Brexit Party then, in December, Conservative. It is very difficult to see how the present government can satisfy the needs of the towns etc in the former industrial and mining areas. Once disillusioned with their new homes (and people get disillusioned quickly nowadays) they are there for the picking for a new right wing populist/nationalist/ditch the lot party which pretends to be in the centre and is actually to the right of the Tories. All it will need is a popular and charismatic leader. It's all very frightening. This might be worth another thread, I do wonder what Farage is going to pitch when Brexit becomes Reform. There is a linear thread of Brexit supporters who were UKIP supporters who were Labour supporters, and these will be in Farage's line of sight. They will be from the "red wall" and beyond, and will have lended their votes to UKIP as a "one off" and maybe never quite returned. My assumption is that Farage truly doesn't want the fringe members of UKIP, the barely disguised BNP types, he wants credible old-school conservatives who can reach the working class voters of the North without veering too far into the zone of the problematic. So some of Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith 's wishlist will come true. "Reform" means not just repackaging UKIP or BxP though so that'll be interesting.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 8, 2020 21:32:10 GMT
The gap in the market is surely, to use a German analogy, the spaces that would be occupied by the FDP and/or AfD.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 8, 2020 21:50:52 GMT
Oh some of us understand only too well. And if it angles itself in an appropriate way there will be all the people to vote for it who used to vote Labour (and elsewhere) and went UKIP then Brexit Party then, in December, Conservative. It is very difficult to see how the present government can satisfy the needs of the towns etc in the former industrial and mining areas. Once disillusioned with their new homes (and people get disillusioned quickly nowadays) they are there for the picking for a new right wing populist/nationalist/ditch the lot party which pretends to be in the centre and is actually to the right of the Tories. All it will need is a popular and charismatic leader. It's all very frightening. This might be worth another thread, I do wonder what Farage is going to pitch when Brexit becomes Reform. There is a linear thread of Brexit supporters who were UKIP supporters who were Labour supporters, and these will be in Farage's line of sight. They will be from the "red wall" and beyond, and will have lended their votes to UKIP as a "one off" and maybe never quite returned. My assumption is that Farage truly doesn't want the fringe members of UKIP, the barely disguised BNP types, he wants credible old-school conservatives who can reach the working class voters of the North without veering too far into the zone of the problematic. So some of Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith 's wishlist will come true. "Reform" means not just repackaging UKIP or BxP though so that'll be interesting. Its the free market economics which don't seem to fit the rest Old-style conservatism was never that bothered about free markets - they were instinctively protectionist Surely the red wall wants and expects British jobs for British workers? Protectionism, not globalisation.
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