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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 20:31:45 GMT
It is depressing. Hugely depressing. Anyway we now have the (slightly amusing)sight of the potential kingmakers of the last election in the MHP trailing in fourth in regards to MV's than the HDP despite a higher vote share.
Blinkered plonkers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 21:30:12 GMT
AKP overseas shares:
France 56%
Germany 59%
Netherlands 69%
Belgium 68%
UK 19% (HDP 54%)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 21:35:48 GMT
We're more enlightened.
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 1, 2015 22:25:19 GMT
More that we have lots of Kurds here.
Turkey gets more like Russia every day. Elections where the population are so fearful that they don't feel able to vote for anyone else than the governing party.
However it's not that Ataturk was a model democrat. The Army had an iron hand over the country and the Islamic strength in Anatolia and the East was suppressed. Now its Erdogan doing the suppressing. Blowing up your opponents is a good way to subdue them. Also the secular movement appears to be consistently losing support.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Nov 1, 2015 22:33:48 GMT
Not an unexpected result but a depressing one. It should kill off the idea, if anyone was foolish enough to believe it, that Turkey is a liberal democracy. I agree, but by the same logic, some US states ruled by Republican theocrats (not than most Republicans are theocrats, but some are) are not liberal democracies either. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 22:54:11 GMT
The secular movement was on the front foot 6mths ago.
Still four years of not so creeping theocracy...actually it may not change a bloody thing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 23:31:46 GMT
Turkey gets more like Russia every day. Elections where the population are so fearful that they don't feel able to vote for anyone else than the governing party. The thing about Russia is that there simply aren't any viable alternatives to the governing party. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 1, 2015 23:48:46 GMT
What is extremely curious about these large AKP blocs in Western Europe is their obsession with the idea that Erdogan is the economic saviour of Turkey, and sometimes (like our chums in Vienna) think we should all be governed in an Erdogan style- and yet they resolutely stay put in Germany and Austria, and don't choose to go and help their new strongman build the new Turkey.
Which is particularly odd given that there are ethnic Turks moving back to Turkey!
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 1, 2015 23:54:38 GMT
Turkey gets more like Russia every day. Elections where the population are so fearful that they don't feel able to vote for anyone else than the governing party. The thing about Russia is that there simply aren't any viable alternatives to the governing party. It could be argued that this is largely down to Putin - and the way Turkey is heading too. |
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 1, 2015 23:59:36 GMT
Not an unexpected result but a depressing one. It should kill off the idea, if anyone was foolish enough to believe it, that Turkey is a liberal democracy. I agree, but by the same logic, some US states ruled by Republican theocrats (not than most Republicans are theocrats, but some are) are not liberal democracies either. I am sorry but that is a comment that is either based on total ignorance or utter stupidity. There are some less than impressive Republican Governors but they are not winning elections via war and intimidation. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Nov 2, 2015 0:00:48 GMT
Mukhtars are sort of village chiefs, right?
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 2, 2015 0:12:50 GMT
Not an unexpected result but a depressing one. It should kill off the idea, if anyone was foolish enough to believe it, that Turkey is a liberal democracy. Anyone who thought that was foolish anyway. What it is is an (ethnic) majoritarian democracy, although a new one (I mean it isn't that long ago when it was reasonable to accuse Turkish parliamentarianism as being entirely a facade behind which the real powers in the military acted). The fact that it is so new as a democracy is why Erdogan is so problematic these days... |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 2, 2015 0:18:01 GMT
The thing about Russia is that there simply aren't any viable alternatives to the governing party. And there are in Turkey? Well there's the HDP, but you don't vote for them unless you're Kurdish. So if you're from the majority that leaves the CHP (the political vehicle of the rightly discredited former establishment; one that was far more corrupt and far less keen on democracy than the AKP - for all its undoubted sins - happens to be) and the MHP (literal nazis). |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Nov 2, 2015 0:19:59 GMT
I agree, but by the same logic, some US states ruled by Republican theocrats (not than most Republicans are theocrats, but some are) are not liberal democracies either. I am sorry but that is a comment that is either based on total ignorance or utter stupidity. There are some less than impressive Republican Governors but they are not winning elections via war and intimidation. Do we have proof of intimidation yet? I believe than, sadly, they don't need it to get a majority. But I agree, Turkey isn't a liberal democracy, despite being much better than most countries of that area (I suppose the only liberal democracy in Middle East is Israel). For the record, I thought you were referring to the religious views of Erdogan, not its tactics, though. Some Americans pretend Republicans are winning elections by requiring more and more ID pieces, by restricting early voting and voting hours and by putting few and understaffed polling stations in black areas, but tons of them with more staff than needed in wealthy areas (usually, it's about Florida). No clue how much credence to give to that and not related to the topic. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 2, 2015 18:37:14 GMT
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 3, 2015 2:15:33 GMT
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 3, 2015 12:05:00 GMT
I agree, but by the same logic, some US states ruled by Republican theocrats (not than most Republicans are theocrats, but some are) are not liberal democracies either. I am sorry but that is a comment that is either based on total ignorance or utter stupidity. There are some less than impressive Republican Governors but they are not winning elections via war and intimidation. Must say I agree. They don't blow up their opponents and then fight an election on the theme of safety. |
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 3, 2015 12:07:02 GMT
The thing about Russia is that there simply aren't any viable alternatives to the governing party. And there are in Turkey? Well there's the HDP, but you don't vote for them unless you're Kurdish. So if you're from the majority that leaves the CHP (the political vehicle of the rightly discredited former establishment; one that was far more corrupt and far less keen on democracy than the AKP - for all its undoubted sins - happens to be) and the MHP (literal nazis). The HDP support is a mixture of Kurdish and progressive left wing secular. They are the first party in Turkey to openly campaign for LGBT equality and have openly gay people standing, for example. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 12:13:02 GMT
There seem to be countervailing trends. On the one hand, the rise and now dominance of AKP has given political hegemony to what was always the majority demographic in cultural terms. On the other hand, there has been a growth in what you might call non-Kemalist secularism, which has the potential to be a powerful (even winning) political force but has unresolved tensions with all existing political forces which prevent it from being one in the short term.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 3, 2015 12:50:59 GMT
AKP overseas shares: France 56% Germany 59% Netherlands 69% Belgium 68% UK 19% (HDP 54%) How many people voted in the UK? I'm surprised by the figure for HDP as I didn't think the Kurdish element were so dominant here (i know HDP is not purely Kurdish but it is primarily in terms of it's voter base). According to Wiki: "According to the Office for National Statistics, the estimated number of British residents born in Turkey was 72,000 in 2009,[53] compared to the 54,079 recorded by the 2001 UK Census.[54] The Home Office and the Turkish consulate in London both claim that there are approximately 150,000 Turkish nationals living in the United Kingdom.[2][48] Academic sources suggest that the Turkey-born population is made up of 60,000 to 100,000 ethnic Turks and 25,000 to 50,000 ethnic Kurds.[55] However, the Department for Communities and Local Government suggests that the Kurdish community in the UK is about 50,000, among which Iraqi Kurds make up the largest group, exceeding the numbers from Turkey and Iran." So a clear majority of Turkish nationals are ethnic Turks. Is it a case of there being major differences in turnout between the two ethnic groups or is there a genuine tendency amongst ethnic Turks from Turkey living in the UK to support the kind of far-left politics espoused by HDP ? |
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