maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,299 
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Post by maxque on Sept 30, 2014 7:33:25 GMT
No, they wouldn't have held their core vote. The Conservative left would leave/vote for LibDems. I don't think those on the Conservative left would of either left or voted Lib Dem if Cameron offered a referendum this parliament. In the Lib Dem manifesto there was a promise of a referendum on the issue of EU membership. I don't think than most people leaving Conservatives for UKIP do so because of Europe. They do because of immigration. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 30, 2014 7:35:07 GMT
Was this a university Labour club or were you hanging off the Left edge of the world? How very dare you!  I'm talking about the students union - Matt Foot stood against me for Vice President in my final year. we both lost.  Talking of superstars we also had David Cameron's Red Tory adviser Phil(ip) Blond who in those days was a "socialist" with a mohican. I used to chair the union and he would constantly challenge my rulings. He lost. Blimey. That is political royalty right there...well, at least minor gentry! I knew Matt Richardson of UKIP-persuading-defectors fame at university. He'll likely go far, wouldn't surprise me at all if he ends up leading UKIP one day. Intriguingly, Owen Jones and Laurie Penny were also there at the same time as me, and yet despite me hanging around with the Labour Club an awful lot, I never saw any sign of them. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 7:36:36 GMT
For many of us on the left, New Labour was basically Thatcherism without the nastiest bits Which makes it very difficult to understand where people like you are coming from. It also makes it very difficult for someone like me to understand where people like you are coming from. New Labour was the worse bits of old Labour with the worse bits of Thatcherism. A something for nothing culture which led to our welfare bill spiraling out of control and being payed for through stealth taxes and the reliance of the banks and other large corporations making huge profits which were subsequently taxed. Open door immigration policy and the failure to maintain any kind of border control. Diminishing civil liberties and the need to tell the people how to live their lives. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 30, 2014 9:45:27 GMT
It also makes it very difficult for someone like me to understand where people like you are coming from. New Labour was the worse bits of old Labour with the worse bits of Thatcherism. A something for nothing culture which led to our welfare bill spiraling out of control and being payed for through stealth taxes and the reliance of the banks and other large corporations making huge profits which were subsequently taxed. Open door immigration policy and the failure to maintain any kind of border control. Diminishing civil liberties and the need to tell the people how to live their lives. Something that this country has never had in our lifetimes. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Sept 30, 2014 9:56:35 GMT
At one stage, Labour favoured continued control of immigration, stricter health checks and deportation of those convicted of criminal offences.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 30, 2014 10:48:04 GMT
UKIP were once libertarian...now there's a distinct whiff of Poujade coming off them.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 30, 2014 11:08:55 GMT
It's more of a distinct whiff of saying whatever they think their audience wants to hear and calling it anti-politics.
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Post by thirdchill on Sept 30, 2014 11:39:18 GMT
UKIP were once libertarian...now there's a distinct whiff of Poujade coming off them. It's populism. If libertarianism isn't popular, they'll either play it down or abandon it. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 12:27:47 GMT
It's more of a distinct whiff of saying whatever they think their audience wants to hear and calling it anti-politics. I know it's terrible how they listen to the people. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 30, 2014 12:35:58 GMT
UKIP were once libertarian...now there's a distinct whiff of Poujade coming off them. It's populism. If libertarianism isn't popular, they'll either play it down or abandon it. True, but the libertarianism was a driving force not that long ago, and was quite openly espoused. I'm not surprised that people such as Richard Allen have lost their will to be part of such a grouping. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 30, 2014 12:39:21 GMT
It's more of a distinct whiff of saying whatever they think their audience wants to hear and calling it anti-politics. I know it's terrible how they listen to the people. It's more the constant lying, the talking out of both sides of their mouth and the changing their minds every time an idea becomes unpopular I object to. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 30, 2014 12:59:09 GMT
It's populism. If libertarianism isn't popular, they'll either play it down or abandon it. True, but the libertarianism was a driving force not that long ago, and was quite openly espoused. I'm not surprised that people such as Richard Allen have lost their will to be part of such a grouping. UKIP's descent into the dishonest populist dustbin was certainly a factor in my decision to leave. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 13:17:07 GMT
True, but the libertarianism was a driving force not that long ago, and was quite openly espoused. I'm not surprised that people such as Richard Allen have lost their will to be part of such a grouping. UKIP's descent into the dishonest populist dustbin was certainly a factor in my decision to leave. It's frustrating to hear someone like you to have left the party as you should be someone who sits in the UKIP group. What Libertarian policies have UKIP disregarded? UKIP have always been Anti-EU, controlled migration and lower taxes. How have they all of a sudden become populist? Because they are popular policies? |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 30, 2014 13:29:10 GMT
UKIP's descent into the dishonest populist dustbin was certainly a factor in my decision to leave. It's frustrating to hear someone like you to have left the party as you should be someone who sits in the UKIP group. What Libertarian policies have UKIP disregarded? UKIP have always been Anti-EU, controlled migration and lower taxes. How have they all of a sudden become populist? Because they are popular policies? This isn't about whether the party is Libertarian or not but about whether it is credible. The 2010 manifesto was an attempt at a coherent political platform. It was far from perfect but for a first real attempt at doing so it wasn't that bad. Instead of improving it UKIP has abandoned any attempt at credible policy making and now largely say what they think people want to hear. The Wythenshawe by election was a particularly disgraceful example of this as is UKIP's opposition to the "bedroom tax". Now I understand the tactics of such an approach and if suits you then fine but I wanted more from UKIP. I wanted the party to have a credible platform for governing. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 30, 2014 13:32:22 GMT
Rumours that UKIP are trying the same "your benefits are safe with us" schtick on the doorstep in Heywood/Middleton as they did in Wythenshawe.....
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Post by Andrew_S on Sept 30, 2014 15:01:31 GMT
"David Cameron is alleged to have called the former Rochester and Strood Conservative MP Mark Reckless a “fat arse” following his defection to UKIP. Meanwhile, the Mayor of London Boris Johnson has raised eyebrows over a quip that UKIP defectors are “the sort of people that have sex with vacuum cleaners.” www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/news/cameron-reckless-is-fat-arse-24301/ |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 15:12:01 GMT
It's frustrating to hear someone like you to have left the party as you should be someone who sits in the UKIP group. What Libertarian policies have UKIP disregarded? UKIP have always been Anti-EU, controlled migration and lower taxes. How have they all of a sudden become populist? Because they are popular policies? This isn't about whether the party is Libertarian or not but about whether it is credible. The 2010 manifesto was an attempt at a coherent political platform. It was far from perfect but for a first real attempt at doing so it wasn't that bad. Instead of improving it UKIP has abandoned any attempt at credible policy making and now largely say what they think people want to hear. The Wythenshawe by election was a particularly disgraceful example of this as is UKIP's opposition to the "bedroom tax". Now I understand the tactics of such an approach and if suits you then fine but I wanted more from UKIP. I wanted the party to have a credible platform for governing. I completely agree with you in regards to creating credible policy. I believe UKIP have a few very good policies such as increasing the tax threshold and lowering the upper band to 35p upto 55k. I feel if UKIP can maintain momentum up until 2015 I see no reason why 10+ MPs could be elected. Two years ago many on here said UKIP getting 1 MP Would be a miracle. |
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Post by greenchristian on Sept 30, 2014 15:16:02 GMT
For many of us on the left, New Labour was basically Thatcherism without the nastiest bits Which makes it very difficult to understand where people like you are coming from. It also makes it very difficult for someone like me to understand where people like you are coming from. ISTR that Thatcher once described New Labour as her greatest achievement. Hopefully that helps you understand my point of view on this one a little better. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 30, 2014 15:17:41 GMT
This isn't about whether the party is Libertarian or not but about whether it is credible. The 2010 manifesto was an attempt at a coherent political platform. It was far from perfect but for a first real attempt at doing so it wasn't that bad. Instead of improving it UKIP has abandoned any attempt at credible policy making and now largely say what they think people want to hear. The Wythenshawe by election was a particularly disgraceful example of this as is UKIP's opposition to the "bedroom tax". Now I understand the tactics of such an approach and if suits you then fine but I wanted more from UKIP. I wanted the party to have a credible platform for governing. I completely agree with you in regards to creating credible policy. I believe UKIP have a few very good policies such as increasing the tax threshold and lowering the upper band to 35p upto 55k. I feel if UKIP can maintain momentum up until 2015 I see no reason why 10+ MPs could be elected. Two years ago many on here said UKIP getting 1 MP Would be a miracle. Those are not credible policies when they're also claiming they'll protect NHS spending. You can either have tax cuts or you can protect services. Both is not an option. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Sept 30, 2014 16:03:26 GMT
Depends on what you're defining as 'services.'
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I'm talking about the students union - Matt Foot stood against me for Vice President in my final year. we both lost. 
Talking of superstars we also had David Cameron's Red Tory adviser Phil(ip) Blond who in those days was a "socialist" with a mohican. I used to chair the union and he would constantly challenge my rulings. He lost. 
