Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 7:03:40 GMT
Well that's exactly my point. People hear that UKIP wants to control immigration, that sets off a Pavlovian fear reaction in their brains that says "they want to control immigration, that means they must be hostile to immigrants, that means they must be hostile to people who aren't like them, maybe they'll think I'm not like them, maybe they hate me" and on the basis of this irrational reaction they declare themselves willing to vote for a hard right tory. I understand the reaction, I just don't have a great deal of sympathy for it. That would be true if their message was simply 'we don't agree with uncontrolled immigration' & that was it. It's the additional '& you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' type comments that generates the hostile responses. & rightly so .... |
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 7, 2014 7:33:18 GMT
Yes we are the sort of people who do read the Guardian as well as the Press and Journal. We make our own custard and our own pesto.....and that does pose worries! The difference is though, Carlton- I'm sure your every waking hour isn't determined by the Schleswig-Pesto Question!  The only possible retort to that is 'Holstein.........Pils' with an emphasis on correct pronunciation. |
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 7, 2014 7:39:13 GMT
Of course tactical voting is the norm. I am just wondering what is the rational switching votes from Labour to what seems like a very right wing tory in a way that boosts the Conservative Party and hurts the Labour Party? The rational seems to be that they have read and believed stories that UKIP are to the right of the Tories, which they simply aren't. I'm sure when 'far leftists' like yourself canvass you hear people who say they agree with you but 'I'll vote Labour - hold on to nurse for fear of something worse' I can understand the rationale. When, because of stories they have heard about UKIP, the same kind of people hold on to a nurse who is not only a tory but gives every impression of being a very right wing tory it strikes me as being quite ridiculous Is rational choice rational that is the question? If I were a Labour supporter in Newark I would have voted UKIP probably. Whilst delighted to hear that Jimbo, I am left wondering why you would do that? Do you see the growth of UKIP to be ephemeral and short-term and thus a much lesser threat than the mainstream Conservative Party? Do you see UKIP as less rightwing than the Conservatives? Or is it just the impossible to resist urge to see the Conservatives beaten in a very safe seat? The latter is less tactical than just malicious but it might have motivated me too had I been in your shoes. |
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 7, 2014 7:44:44 GMT
I'm just popping out for some Latvian cheese. They had an article the other day about a beer style they called "London Murky", which turned out to be cloudy beer with too many hops in it. What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days. |
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Jun 7, 2014 7:57:16 GMT
They had an article the other day about a beer style they called "London Murky", which turned out to be cloudy beer with too many hops in it. What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days.  |
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 7, 2014 8:09:59 GMT
What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days. Sterling chap Fins. What is your source and are you of Kent? |
|
|
|
Post by Devonian on Jun 7, 2014 8:14:12 GMT
Well that's exactly my point. People hear that UKIP wants to control immigration, that sets off a Pavlovian fear reaction in their brains that says "they want to control immigration, that means they must be hostile to immigrants, that means they must be hostile to people who aren't like them, maybe they'll think I'm not like them, maybe they hate me" and on the basis of this irrational reaction they declare themselves willing to vote for a hard right tory. I understand the reaction, I just don't have a great deal of sympathy for it. I don't think it's quite like that. It's more that UKIP have taken on a fairly specific cultural aesthetic that appeals strongly to some people but repels many others. Indeed. Its a 'gut reaction', however it is later rationalised. I am simply describing the mindset that causes that gut reaction. |
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Jun 7, 2014 8:36:20 GMT
Sterling chap Fins. What is your source and are you of Kent? carlton - I just search the name and see what turns up in google images. The sources are usually people selling stuff on ebay (£20.00 for that label!!) or on brewery history websites. There's also a website called Kent photo archive good for pub photos. My late father was from Lewisham but went to work on the land in kent during the war through to the 1950s - generally around Maidstone. I did once go to one of his locals, which I think was the Red Lion in Lenham (which would have been a Fremlins pub at the time) but I'm not 100% sure. I have a photo somewhere but can't find it. He also visited the Man of Kent at East Peckham - but then he did have a bicycle. :)I'm a londoner though, born within a pub crawl's distance of Fuller's brewery in Chiswick. |
|
|
|
Post by Devonian on Jun 7, 2014 9:02:38 GMT
Well that's exactly my point. People hear that UKIP wants to control immigration, that sets off a Pavlovian fear reaction in their brains that says "they want to control immigration, that means they must be hostile to immigrants, that means they must be hostile to people who aren't like them, maybe they'll think I'm not like them, maybe they hate me" and on the basis of this irrational reaction they declare themselves willing to vote for a hard right tory. I understand the reaction, I just don't have a great deal of sympathy for it. That would be true if their message was simply 'we don't agree with uncontrolled immigration' & that was it. It's the additional '& you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' type comments that generates the hostile responses. & rightly so .... This is an illustration of my point. No-one has said 'you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' This is a reference to Farage being asked specifically if a 'group of Romanian men' moved next door would he be concerned, more than he would be about a German family with children. He answered was that he would be. That's an entirely rational response. When people get new neighbours its natural for them be concerned that they will be good neighbours, not prone to crime or antisocial behaviour. If the new neighbours are a young family from a relatively low crime area their concerns will straight away be reduced. When they are group of men who have moved from a relatively high crime area those concerns will naturally be increased. That's all that what was said. However you translated that in your mind to "He doesn't want Romanians next door, he wants to exclude them, that means he must hate them, therefore he hates people who are not like him, that might include me, that makes me afraid, therefore I hate him" A gut reaction that means that the perception of what was said is quite different to what was actually said. When some Labour supporters (who no doubt think of themselves as rational people ) are so overwhelmed by this gut reaction that they end up voting for a very right wing Tory I do find it a bit comical. |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
|
Post by The Bishop on Jun 7, 2014 9:15:32 GMT
UKIP may or may not be "to the right" of mainstream Toryism - however, what is beyond any serious doubt is that Helmer was.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 9:20:49 GMT
That would be true if their message was simply 'we don't agree with uncontrolled immigration' & that was it. It's the additional '& you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' type comments that generates the hostile responses. & rightly so .... This is an illustration of my point. No-one has said 'you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' This is a reference to Farage being asked specifically if a 'group of Romanian men' moved next door would he be concerned, more than he would be about a German family with children. He answered was that he would be. That's an entirely rational response. When people get new neighbours its natural for them be concerned that they will be good neighbours, not prone to crime or antisocial behaviour. If the new neighbours are a young family from a relatively low crime area their concerns will straight away be reduced. When they are group of men who have moved from a relatively high crime area those concerns will naturally be increased. That's all that what was said. Well, I suppose it depends on your mindset. That has never been my reaction or response, & I hope never will be. I tend to take a positive view of people, I appreciate that not all share my optimism. I also find prejudging rather pointless. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 7, 2014 9:31:01 GMT
They had an article the other day about a beer style they called "London Murky", which turned out to be cloudy beer with too many hops in it. What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days. You need to try some of these "craft beers" that the hipsters are so enamoured of- they use excessive hops to make up for the total lack of body (hello, Brewdog Punk IPA). Well-hopped bitter is indeed a delight. Joseph Holts Bitter is magnificently bitter, if you're ever in the Selnec area. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 9:32:12 GMT
What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days. You need to try some of these "craft beers" that the hipsters are so enamoured of- they use excessive hops to make up for the total lack of body (hello, Brewdog Punk IPA). Well-hopped bitter is indeed a delight. Joseph Holts Bitter is magnificently bitter, if you're ever in the Selnec area. I bloody love Holts bitter. I also have to agree with you about Brew Dog. They do have some crackers but there's a lot of...shall we say...gimmicks to get through first. |
|
|
|
Post by Devonian on Jun 7, 2014 9:36:15 GMT
UKIP may or may not be "to the right" of mainstream Toryism - however, what is beyond any serious doubt is that Helmer was. I'll take your point about Helmer. I'm sure there were some people, especially women, who might not have switched with another UKIP candidate but who did switch because of Helmer's various gaffes. |
|
|
|
Post by Arthur Figgis on Jun 7, 2014 9:49:24 GMT
What do you mean 'too many hops'? Outrage......outrage! It is an impossible concept. Masons of Maidstone used to brew a 'well-hopped' bitter that we introduced to young USAF aircrew in Kent because of the wonderful and immediate reaction it always caused............deep draught drunk and immediate expectoration of all of it, such was the intense bitterness. Never failed. Simple pleasures! We made our own entertainment in those days. You need to try some of these "craft beers" that the hipsters are so enamoured of- they use excessive hops to make up for the total lack of body (hello, Brewdog Punk IPA). I'd argue that it's more like Brewdog use marketing and shock tactics to make up for the total lack of brewing ability. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 7, 2014 9:57:19 GMT
You need to try some of these "craft beers" that the hipsters are so enamoured of- they use excessive hops to make up for the total lack of body (hello, Brewdog Punk IPA). I'd argue that it's more like Brewdog use marketing and shock tactics to make up for the total lack of brewing ability. I think you, me and the Good Doktor are in agreement here. I saw some friends the other day who I'd last met up with in a Brewdog pub in Nottingham. We were discussing the fact that the place had been full of poseurs drinking halves, demanding large taster glasses of things they had already tried as if this act made them connoisseurs, and going on with themselves about how, like, Brewdog beers are, like, so, like, yeah? Or some such. Fisher Price beer for the instant gratification, dishonest-use-of-the-concept-of-irony generation. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 10:24:30 GMT
Budweiser is made from rice, now that's a crime and UKIP should be fighting for an EU ruling that it cannot be called beer.
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jun 7, 2014 10:37:45 GMT
With a better candidate; in a Con/Lab marginal rather than a sfae Conservative seat; in Lincolnshire or Essex or Kent or Norfolk instead of Nottinghamshire; in somewhere where there are more recently-arrived migrant workers. You missed out the most important point, they need a leadership that wants to win a by election and it should now be clear that this isn't the case. Even in the most opportune circumstances UKIP still fall short because they don't know how to run a proper campaign. If they wanted to win they would pay for an experienced campaign manager to totally revamp their by election operation but instead they leave people like the woeful Lisa Duffy running things. By elections aren't won just be getting hundreds of activists into a seat, they are won by professional campaigns that identify their likely supporters and make sure they turn out. UKIP's ground game is extremely enthusiastic but absolutely clueless and year after year after year their leadership have done nothing to deal with that problem. This is going to be a serious issue for UKIP councillors in the next few months- they'll need a lot of central support which I don't see is available. |
|
|
|
Post by Devonian on Jun 7, 2014 10:42:48 GMT
This is an illustration of my point. No-one has said 'you wouldn't want them Romanians living next door anyway' This is a reference to Farage being asked specifically if a 'group of Romanian men' moved next door would he be concerned, more than he would be about a German family with children. He answered was that he would be. That's an entirely rational response. When people get new neighbours its natural for them be concerned that they will be good neighbours, not prone to crime or antisocial behaviour. If the new neighbours are a young family from a relatively low crime area their concerns will straight away be reduced. When they are group of men who have moved from a relatively high crime area those concerns will naturally be increased. That's all that what was said. Well, I suppose it depends on your mindset. That has never been my reaction or response, & I hope never will be. I tend to take a positive view of people, I appreciate that not all share my optimism. I also find prejudging rather pointless. I think that's true that its a difference in mindset. That's always been my response whenever I've had new neighbours. Thankfully so far they've all been fine (more or less) but given the amount of misery that antisocial neighbours can cause and given that I am rather a pessimist I do worry. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 10:47:18 GMT
I'd argue that it's more like Brewdog use marketing and shock tactics to make up for the total lack of brewing ability. I think you, me and the Good Doktor are in agreement here. I saw some friends the other day who I'd last met up with in a Brewdog pub in Nottingham. We were discussing the fact that the place had been full of poseurs drinking halves, demanding large taster glasses of things they had already tried as if this act made them connoisseurs, and going on with themselves about how, like, Brewdog beers are, like, so, like, yeah? Or some such. Fisher Price beer for the instant gratification, dishonest-use-of-the-concept-of-irony generation. Infuriating as they are (yes, yes, 36%, very good), there's clearly people involved who know their stuff about flavour, and brewing. I talked to one of their Fraserburgh sales team, and she was knowledgeable, smart and a passionate advocate for the brand. Unfortunately, as you say, they attract (deliberately) the hipster/see-and-be-seen crowd who know about 'ale' as a concept but nothing beyond that. Luckily their better bottles can be bought outside their bars so I don't have to suffer getting scened to death. |
|
