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Post by johnsmith on Jan 27, 2016 22:08:53 GMT
Very true. I was only 16 when the gang of four left Labour and founded the SDP. And that was a very long time ago because I am 50 now! David Owen was a fairly prominent figure in politics for much of the 80s, but largely disappeared off the scene not too long after. He did crop up in the 90s in connection with his involvement in trying to broker a peace deal in the former Yugoslavia, but has not really been a prominent figure since. Many people much younger than their late 30s might well never have heard of him. Many people much younger than their late 30s think only of Churchill as the dog on that advert. That reminds me of a survey done on teenagers' historical knowledge a few years back. And apparently, substantial numbers of them believed that Adolf Hitler was the coach of the German soccer team, whilst Ronald Macdonald was a US President. |
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Post by justin124 on Jan 28, 2016 11:02:41 GMT
I was a bit surprised that Shirley Williams did not defect back to Labour as a result of the LibDems entering coalition with the Tories - particularly as the main policy differences she had with Labour in the early 1980s had by that time been resolved . Surely she would have been more at home in Milliband's Labour Party in 2010 than the party she was content to remain a member of throughout the 1970s!?
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 28, 2016 11:10:41 GMT
Reportedly both Rodgers and Williams had to be talked out of rejoining Labour in the mid-1990s.
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Post by justin124 on Jan 28, 2016 11:45:15 GMT
Reportedly both Rodgers and Williams had to be talked out of rejoining Labour in the mid-1990s. That is interesting . Not heard that before. But I still find it strange that at a crucial moment when she could have influenced public policy in 2010 Williams failed to act. If she had come out strongly against the Coalition deal - together with Charles Kennedy - others would almost certainly have jumped on board and perhaps torpedoed it at the outset! |
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Max
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Post by Max on Jan 28, 2016 12:43:06 GMT
Many people much younger than their late 30s think only of Churchill as the dog on that advert. Ohhhh yes. But that's good enough to be some people's favourite popular figure... |
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right
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Post by right on Jan 29, 2016 11:15:49 GMT
Reportedly both Rodgers and Williams had to be talked out of rejoining Labour in the mid-1990s. That is interesting . Not heard that before. But I still find it strange that at a crucial moment when she could have influenced public policy in 2010 Williams failed to act. If she had come out strongly against the Coalition deal - together with Charles Kennedy - others would almost certainly have jumped on board and perhaps torpedoed it at the outset! Ashdown seems to have been the crucial reluctant coalitionist. Once he admitted how the numbers worked there was no alternative to backing the Tories in some form. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Feb 1, 2016 1:03:36 GMT
That is interesting . Not heard that before. But I still find it strange that at a crucial moment when she could have influenced public policy in 2010 Williams failed to act. If she had come out strongly against the Coalition deal - together with Charles Kennedy - others would almost certainly have jumped on board and perhaps torpedoed it at the outset! Ashdown seems to have been the crucial reluctant coalitionist. Once he admitted how the numbers worked there was no alternative to backing the Tories in some form. And he was right. There was no other viable coalition available. I would not argue that Clegg was wrong to form a coalition. It was the terms of that coalition and the fact that too many of the Libs Dems were so bloody enthusiastic about it (Alexander, Laws, etc.) |
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Post by justin124 on Feb 1, 2016 9:29:12 GMT
Ashdown seems to have been the crucial reluctant coalitionist. Once he admitted how the numbers worked there was no alternative to backing the Tories in some form. And he was right. There was no other viable coalition available. I would not argue that Clegg was wrong to form a coalition. It was the terms of that coalition and the fact that too many of the Libs Dems were so bloody enthusiastic about it (Alexander, Laws, etc.) But that did not oblige Williams to go along with it - Kennedy declined to do so. She could have said 'OK if that's what you are going to do , I am leaving and will seek to rejoin Labour!' I don't actually agree that a Coalition was inevitable - Confidence & Supply was an option. |
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right
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Post by right on Feb 1, 2016 9:42:59 GMT
And he was right. There was no other viable coalition available. I would not argue that Clegg was wrong to form a coalition. It was the terms of that coalition and the fact that too many of the Libs Dems were so bloody enthusiastic about it (Alexander, Laws, etc.) But that did not oblige Williams to go along with it - Kennedy declined to do so. She could have said 'OK if that's what you are going to do , I am leaving and will seek to rejoin Labour!' I don't actually agree that a Coalition was inevitable - Confidence & Supply was an option. Confidence and supply would have reinforced the association of hung parliaments with weak governments. |
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Crimson King
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Post by Crimson King on Feb 1, 2016 10:00:07 GMT
But that did not oblige Williams to go along with it - Kennedy declined to do so. She could have said 'OK if that's what you are going to do , I am leaving and will seek to rejoin Labour!' I don't actually agree that a Coalition was inevitable - Confidence & Supply was an option. Confidence and supply would have reinforced the association of hung parliaments with weak governments. followed by an autumn election and a majority Tory government 4 1/2 years earlier than we got it in the end |
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Post by justin124 on Feb 1, 2016 10:10:44 GMT
An autumn election would only have been likely if no alternative Government could have been formed from the existing House of Commons. Had Cameron sought to call one ,Clegg and the LibDems could have switched their support to Labour & combined with other parties to put together a majority 'in the national interest' to avoid the instability of a second 2010 election.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Feb 1, 2016 10:39:32 GMT
Yes, c & s *was* an option (though not without problems itself)
The possibility the Tories could have forced a quick election and won outright is just that - a possibility. It was a risk for them as well.
Clegg and his "Orange Book" mates went into coalition with Cameron with such alacrity because they *wanted* to. Hence also their agreeing such generous terms.
They were eventually judged on that by the electorate, as is proper.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Feb 1, 2016 12:44:52 GMT
And he was right. There was no other viable coalition available. I would not argue that Clegg was wrong to form a coalition. It was the terms of that coalition and the fact that too many of the Libs Dems were so bloody enthusiastic about it (Alexander, Laws, etc.) But that did not oblige Williams to go along with it - Kennedy declined to do so. She could have said 'OK if that's what you are going to do , I am leaving and will seek to rejoin Labour!' I don't actually agree that a Coalition was inevitable - Confidence & Supply was an option. Clegg was concerned, rightly, that Cameron would cut and run and call a second general election rather like Wilson did in 1974. His mistake was to focus too much on constitutional issues such as the fixed term Parliament and the half-arsed AV referendum and let the Tories get away with too much on the policy side. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Feb 1, 2016 12:48:48 GMT
Even with constitutional reform, I still can't understand why Clegg allowed himself to be fobbed off with what HE had described as a "miserable little compromise" so easily. Even if he regrets nothing else about going into coalition, I bet he wishes he had held out for a referendum on a genuine PR system.
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Post by justin124 on Feb 1, 2016 12:54:57 GMT
Even with a C & S arrangement I believe Clegg could have blocked a second election by threatening to switch LibDem support to Labour.
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Post by lennon on Feb 1, 2016 13:17:14 GMT
Even with constitutional reform, I still can't understand why Clegg allowed himself to be fobbed off with what HE had described as a "miserable little compromise" so easily. Even if he regrets nothing else about going into coalition, I bet he wishes he had held out for a referendum on a genuine PR system. What they should have done (easy in hindsight) is to throw a curve-ball, ignore Westminster, and insist on STV for Local Council elections in England & Wales to match Scotland. The Tories might well have gone for it as a way of killing the Labour single-party states (Tory representation in Liverpool and Manchester again!) and a bulwark against (perceived to be transfer unfriendly) UKIP in Tory heartlands. Lib Dem activists would have been unhappy though - they had been waiting years for a coalition and the promise of electoral reform. |
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right
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Post by right on Feb 1, 2016 14:59:59 GMT
Even with a C & S arrangement I believe Clegg could have blocked a second election by threatening to switch LibDem support to Labour. In that case the queen would have had to overrule a sitting Prime Minister trying to dissolve Parliament. This isn't Australia. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Feb 1, 2016 16:42:47 GMT
Even with a C & S arrangement I believe Clegg could have blocked a second election by threatening to switch LibDem support to Labour. It still wouldn't have been enough. It would have required a coalition of Labour, LibDem, SNP, PC, Green, SDLP, and Sylvia Hermon to produce a narrow majority. |
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Post by greenchristian on Feb 1, 2016 17:02:01 GMT
Even with constitutional reform, I still can't understand why Clegg allowed himself to be fobbed off with what HE had described as a "miserable little compromise" so easily. Even if he regrets nothing else about going into coalition, I bet he wishes he had held out for a referendum on a genuine PR system. What they should have done (easy in hindsight) is to throw a curve-ball, ignore Westminster, and insist on STV for Local Council elections in England & Wales to match Scotland. The Tories might well have gone for it as a way of killing the Labour single-party states (Tory representation in Liverpool and Manchester again!) and a bulwark against (perceived to be transfer unfriendly) UKIP in Tory heartlands. In 2010, UKIP wasn't perceived as a threat to anybody outside of European Parliament elections. They had almost no councillors and struggled to retain their deposits in even their best Westminster seats. Agree that it would have been a better thing for them to go for, though. |
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Crimson King
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Post by Crimson King on Feb 1, 2016 17:24:01 GMT
An autumn election would only have been likely if no alternative Government could have been formed from the existing House of Commons. Had Cameron sought to call one ,Clegg and the LibDems could have switched their support to Labour & combined with other parties to put together a majority 'in the national interest' to avoid the instability of a second 2010 election. I can't be arsed to look it up, but if you can put together a non conservative majority with any concievable chance of all voting together from the 2010 HoC I may concede your point |
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