neilm
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Post by neilm on Jan 27, 2016 11:21:30 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. No, but they all know about Ramsay MacDonald. He seems to be a totem in the Labour Party, they're all obsessed with the events of 1931, being betrayed etc etc. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 11:26:32 GMT
MacDonald is a folk tale, whereas Owen is a mere footnote in the dustbin of history.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jan 27, 2016 11:27:32 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. No, but they all know about Ramsay MacDonald. He seems to be a totem in the Labour Party, they're all obsessed with the events of 1931, being betrayed etc etc. That's normal. If David Cameron decided to leave with 15 Conservative MPs and make a coalition with Labour, I'm sure Conservatives of the year 2090 will obsess over it, too. |
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Post by John Chanin on Jan 27, 2016 11:29:44 GMT
It's got the same cosmic level of irony as when Brian Sedgemore defected from Labour to the Liberal Democrats, thereby joining all the ex-SDP people who had left Labour because it was full of people like Brian Sedgemore. I will have mentioned this before, but my claim to fame is that I was sat behind him when he publicly defected. What a miserable, rude character. I have to disagree. I was a Hackney resident, and employed in Hackney for many years, and found Sedgemore thoughtful and principled. I agree that his defection to the Lib Dems was ironic as stated by Mr Boothroyd, but not that he was miserable or rude. How many other MPs gave up on the Labour Party as a result of the Iraq war? Most of them are way too careerist, whatever they may have thought personally. |
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Post by johnsmith on Jan 27, 2016 11:40:45 GMT
I will have mentioned this before, but my claim to fame is that I was sat behind him when he publicly defected. What a miserable, rude character. I have to disagree. I was a Hackney resident, and employed in Hackney for many years, and found Sedgemore thoughtful and principled. I agree that his defection to the Lib Dems was ironic as stated by Mr Boothroyd, but not that he was miserable or rude. How many other MPs gave up on the Labour Party as a result of the Iraq war? Most of them are way too careerist, whatever they may have thought personally. My dad was a taxi driver in Plymouth back when David Owen was Labour MP for Devonport, and once had him in his taxi. He always said that Owen came across as a deeply arrogant and rude man. Mind you, my dad was a working class Tory so is possibly biased. And I can well imagine that if he had started spouting his Tory guff, David Owen might not have received it in the manner in which my dad would have liked, lol. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 11:47:51 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. No, but they all know about Ramsay MacDonald. He seems to be a totem in the Labour Party, they're all obsessed with the events of 1931, being betrayed etc etc. Where would the Left be without their narratives of betrayal? They are the spécialité de la maison. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Jan 27, 2016 12:15:47 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. No, but they all know about Ramsay MacDonald. He seems to be a totem in the Labour Party, they're all obsessed with the events of 1931, being betrayed etc etc. Yes but Ramsey MacDonald was a rather more substantial figure that David Owen ever was. Imagine if Harold Wilson and three or four of his cabinet had defected in 1975 and formed a Government with Jeremy Thorpe and Margaret Thatcher, I think he would have been in the hall of infamy for decades. The SDP breakaway was more of a minor irritant as it involved figures who were past their best. The majority of voters who followed them would probably have defected to the Liberals or Conservatives regardless. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Jan 27, 2016 12:17:44 GMT
I have to disagree. I was a Hackney resident, and employed in Hackney for many years, and found Sedgemore thoughtful and principled. I agree that his defection to the Lib Dems was ironic as stated by Mr Boothroyd, but not that he was miserable or rude. How many other MPs gave up on the Labour Party as a result of the Iraq war? Most of them are way too careerist, whatever they may have thought personally. My dad was a taxi driver in Plymouth back when David Owen was Labour MP for Devonport, and once had him in his taxi. He always said that Owen came across as a deeply arrogant and rude man. Mind you, my dad was a working class Tory so is possibly biased. And I can well imagine that if he had started spouting his Tory guff, David Owen might not have received it in the manner in which my dad would have liked, lol. A Plymouth Cabbie comments: "I had that David Owen in the back of my cab yesterday. Stringing up is too good for them!" |
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Post by finsobruce on Jan 27, 2016 13:33:43 GMT
No, but they all know about Ramsay MacDonald. He seems to be a totem in the Labour Party, they're all obsessed with the events of 1931, being betrayed etc etc. Where would the Left be without their narratives of betrayal? They are the spécialité de la maison. Indeed so...the far left in particular use it as a stick to try and beat everybody else with. However, the person most obsessed with Ramsay MacDonald on this board is neilm  |
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Post by finsobruce on Jan 27, 2016 13:39:46 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. I think I've told this story before but as I haven't got any new ones i'm going to trot it out again.... One of the first Labour party meetings I ever attended (1983) was a ward nomination meeting for the London West Euro Constituency. One of the candidates was some poor guy called David Owen. He got no votes at all. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Jan 27, 2016 13:53:40 GMT
Where would the Left be without their narratives of betrayal? They are the spécialité de la maison. Indeed so...the far left in particular use it as a stick to try and beat everybody else with. However, the person most obsessed with Ramsay MacDonald on this board is neilm Come now, others mention him... |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 27, 2016 13:55:36 GMT
I will have mentioned this before, but my claim to fame is that I was sat behind him when he publicly defected. What a miserable, rude character. I have to disagree. I was a Hackney resident, and employed in Hackney for many years, and found Sedgemore thoughtful and principled. I agree that his defection to the Lib Dems was ironic as stated by Mr Boothroyd, but not that he was miserable or rude. How many other MPs gave up on the Labour Party as a result of the Iraq war? Most of them are way too careerist, whatever they may have thought personally. Well fair enough, everyone will have different experiences, but I can only take people as I find them- I was there as a teller for his debate and found him quite unpleasant to deal with. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 14:10:33 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. Very true. I was only 16 when the gang of four left Labour and founded the SDP. And that was a very long time ago because I am 50 now! David Owen was a fairly prominent figure in politics for much of the 80s, but largely disappeared off the scene not too long after. He did crop up in the 90s in connection with his involvement in trying to broker a peace deal in the former Yugoslavia, but has not really been a prominent figure since. Many people much younger than their late 30s might well never have heard of him. Indeed, his profile fell further than any other member of the Gang of Four. Even Rodgers, who was never very high profile, was more active in the Lords in the 1990s, while Jenkins arguably remains a more influential figure than Owen despite having been dead for 13 years. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Jan 27, 2016 14:15:13 GMT
I have to disagree. I was a Hackney resident, and employed in Hackney for many years, and found Sedgemore thoughtful and principled. I agree that his defection to the Lib Dems was ironic as stated by Mr Boothroyd, but not that he was miserable or rude. How many other MPs gave up on the Labour Party as a result of the Iraq war? Most of them are way too careerist, whatever they may have thought personally. Well fair enough, everyone will have different experiences, but I can only take people as I find them- I was there as a teller for his debate and found him quite unpleasant to deal with. I can remember Sedgemore when he wrote articles for Tribune and he came over as rather abrasive hard left and appeared the least likely defection to the Lib Dems. |
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Post by John Chanin on Jan 27, 2016 14:21:56 GMT
It is of course generally true that any politician (indeed any person) faced with someone who accuses them of all sorts of dereliction and is hostile to their very existence, is likely to be "abrasive" and "rude". Even pjones is likely to agree with this, as it is Mr Trump's default setting.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:46:47 GMT
As Baron Owen is 77 years old isn't this thread a tad overblown & a decade or so too late. It's a bit like speculating whether Jimmy Connors & Chris Evert will get back together ....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 18:14:26 GMT
As Baron Owen is 77 years old isn't this thread a tad overblown & a decade or so too late. It's a bit like speculating whether Jimmy Connors & Chris Evert will get back together .... It was created in response to Owen donating £7.5k to the Labour Party, a surprising move for a former Foreign Secretary who tried to destroy said party 30 or so years ago. Thought it was worth a mention. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 18:47:09 GMT
Worth remembering that a lot of people now actively involved in Labour won't really know who David Owen is. Very true. I was only 16 when the gang of four left Labour and founded the SDP. And that was a very long time ago because I am 50 now! David Owen was a fairly prominent figure in politics for much of the 80s, but largely disappeared off the scene not too long after. He did crop up in the 90s in connection with his involvement in trying to broker a peace deal in the former Yugoslavia, but has not really been a prominent figure since. Many people much younger than their late 30s might well never have heard of him. Many people much younger than their late 30s think only of Churchill as the dog on that advert. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 18:48:25 GMT
I welcome him back on board. I can't remember where I read this, but it sums up my views perfectly: Successful political movements look for converts; unsuccessful ones hunt for heretics. He certainly compares very favourably with his former colleagues like Shirley Williams who have become apologists for a right-wing Conservative-led coalition. Has she? I never noticed. Neither did I notice that the coalition was particularly right wing......unfortunately Ironic you criticising Shirley Williams, for sticking with her party when it took a course of action she disagreed with given your current position in Labour |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jan 27, 2016 21:50:52 GMT
Very true. I was only 16 when the gang of four left Labour and founded the SDP. And that was a very long time ago because I am 50 now! David Owen was a fairly prominent figure in politics for much of the 80s, but largely disappeared off the scene not too long after. He did crop up in the 90s in connection with his involvement in trying to broker a peace deal in the former Yugoslavia, but has not really been a prominent figure since. Many people much younger than their late 30s might well never have heard of him. Many people much younger than their late 30s think only of Churchill as the dog on that advert. Ohhhh yes. |
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