Election maps (UK wide)

[aargauer]

Council tax is a pretty good tax, all in all.

Overeliance on income tax is clearly generationally unfair when you see things like J.G.Harston essentially doing a mini-Elon Musk and borrowing against his appreciating assets and paying nothing other than council tax (if even that).

The local income tax, while not a bad idea in and of itself was a pretty stupid idea to replace the only wealth tax we have.

I may have been the first person to make an Elon Musk / J.G.Harston comparison

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2024 1:45:38 GMT john07 said:

Try telling that to someone whose rateable value has gone up by 800% and who probably thinks that he will have to pay eight times as much as before.

I don’t know what the answer to that is.

Land value tax on the freeholder. Many freeholders take the piss with service charges and ground rents. Some do not do so, obviously. That would help free up shares of freeholds so that people can own the land they're home is built on. I am very fortunate to have a share of freehold on a flat here in sunny Highgate. I recognise that's often not the norm in London, and some service charges are foul. Even ours is about £3,000+ (which is about 1% of what our flat was worth when we completed on it in December. We have a problem with freeholds and we have a problem with council tax - let's kill two birds with one stone?

[carlton43]

Sept 10, 2024 1:45:38 GMT john07 said:

Try telling that to someone whose rateable value has gone up by 800% and who probably thinks that he will have to pay eight times as much as before.

I don’t know what the answer to that is.

Tax people on basis of what they use and a basic figure for being an individual citizen at a given address and ignore the nature of the property value altogether.

[Deleted]

Tax people not things I say. The value of my home doesn't define me. I wasn't born in 1991, therefore the valuations are irrelevant to me. We should just pay a single tax on all income and central government should give some of it to local authorities when needed. 

[J.G.Harston]

Sept 10, 2024 1:45:38 GMT john07 said:

Try telling that to someone whose rateable value has gone up by 800% and who probably thinks that he will have to pay eight times as much as before.

I don’t know what the answer to that is.

The answer is that everybody else's rateable value has also gone up by 800%, and while the number of pound notes will be nine times greater (nb: not 8 times greater, plus 800% is times 9. What do you get if you add 8 to 1?), each pound note will only be worth 11p anyway.

And if everybody else's rateable value hasn't gone as much as yours, then that means your property is yes more valueable then everybody elses, and so yes will attract a higher tax. Just as if your income is higher than other people's, your income tax is higher than other people's.

In 1992 a Band A property in Brightside was typically worth £20,000 and paid about £200 per year council tax.

In 2024 a Band A property in Brightside is typically worth £120,000 and pays £1200 per year council tax. Shock horror! My property has gone up in value and my tax has gone up likewise!!!! Yes, from 1% of value to 1% of value.

[The Bishop]

Alternatively, taxes on land may be an idea whose time may finally be about to come?

[iang]

David Lloyd George made it part of the People's Budget over a century ago

[The Bishop]

I am also (just) old enough to remember when "Site Value Rating!" was something of a Liberal shibboleth.

[gwynthegriff]

Sept 10, 2024 6:16:25 GMT @sanders said:

Sept 10, 2024 1:45:38 GMT john07 said:

Try telling that to someone whose rateable value has gone up by 800% and who probably thinks that he will have to pay eight times as much as before.

I don’t know what the answer to that is.

Land value tax on the freeholder. Many freeholders take the piss with service charges and ground rents. Some do not do so, obviously. That would help free up shares of freeholds so that people can own the land they're home is built on.

I've heard of Oxford commas, but is this an Oxford Apostrophe?

[aargauer]

Sept 10, 2024 12:23:51 GMT The Bishop said:

Alternatively, taxes on land may be an idea whose time may finally be about to come?

Isn't that what council tax is?

[The Bishop]

Isn't that much more on property though?

[aargauer]

Sept 10, 2024 9:23:08 GMT @sanders said:

Tax people not things I say. The value of my home doesn't define me. I wasn't born in 1991, therefore the valuations are irrelevant to me. We should just pay a single tax on all income and central government should give some of it to local authorities when needed. 

That's about the worst of all worlds.

All of tax on income rather than wealth. No incentives for efficiency in local governments and no competition between authorities.

Great for me if I stay here and eventually go home after retirement. I could shield all of my income from the UK taxpayer and pay absolutely nothing while kids in their 20s pay 40% tax.

[aargauer]

Sept 10, 2024 13:08:08 GMT The Bishop said:

Isn't that much more on property though?

Sure - but if we consider council tax + business rates, isn't the main difference agricultural land?

I think that's a reasonable exception from a wealth tax - its not something you can really leverage.

[Pete Whitehead]

To help get this thread back on topic (im sure there are other threads about local government finance) and with a nod to the evident nostalgia for the early 1990s, here's Somerset 1992



Dear old Bridgwater never changes lol

[Khunanup]

Sept 10, 2024 13:11:17 GMT aargauer said:

Sept 10, 2024 13:08:08 GMT The Bishop said:

Isn't that much more on property though?

Sure - but if we consider council tax + business rates, isn't the main difference agricultural land?

I think that's a reasonable exception from a wealth tax - its not something you can really leverage.

The biggest issue with council tax being property only is that it does nothing about land banking and not moving forward with development. LVT penalises just that behaviour and the therefore puts additional pressure to actually build on suitable land rather than just sit on it and stop others from doing so.

[andrewp]

Sept 10, 2024 13:18:22 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

To help get this thread back on topic (im sure there are other threads about local government finance) and with a nod to the evident nostalgia for the early 1990s, here's Somerset 1992



Dear old Bridgwater never changes lol

Some would say it hasn’t changed since about 1958. 

I wonder when that basic pattern in the town of the Conservatives winning the Western ward ( Quantock/ Wyndham) and Labour winning the rest was last not the case at a GE.

[johnloony]

Sept 10, 2024 13:05:29 GMT aargauer said:

Sept 10, 2024 12:23:51 GMT The Bishop said:

Alternatively, taxes on land may be an idea whose time may finally be about to come?

Isn't that what council tax is?

No. Council Tax is a tax on houses, based on their value in 1990. Land tax is a tax on land area, based on what sort of thing it is used for.

[johnloony]

Sept 10, 2024 12:54:10 GMT gwynthegriff said:

Sept 10, 2024 6:16:25 GMT @sanders said:

Land value tax on the freeholder. Many freeholders take the piss with service charges and ground rents. Some do not do so, obviously. That would help free up shares of freeholds so that people can own the land they're home is built on.

I've heard of Oxford commas, but is this an Oxford Apostrophe?

N’!,o

[batman]

Sept 10, 2024 13:18:22 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

To help get this thread back on topic (im sure there are other threads about local government finance) and with a nod to the evident nostalgia for the early 1990s, here's Somerset 1992



Dear old Bridgwater never changes lol

well you tried Pete

[Deleted]

Stoke-on-Trent. Trentham sticking out like a sore thumb. The Tories did lose the ward in 1995, and timmullen would know more about the area's electoral history.