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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 16, 2024 16:43:35 GMT
I did not mean to prod you or to cause hurt, just point out that for many of us such feelings cannot be termed bizarre because they are not. There is real cause for where we are in our mind-set. You have a foot in both camps but you are far more distanced in time than people like me are. I lived on an RAF air station that was bombed and shot up twice during that period. I have no direct memories or trauma from it. But the graphic descriptions from my Mother of helping to remove a number of dead and dying young women from slit trenches near a runway will live with me forever. I am not going to get into trading incidents or blame and guilt because it serves no purpose and only inflames the rhetoric. I think that you need to come to terms with the judgment of history on WW2 as to the balance sheet of wrongs done. On that balance sheet we are in deep credit and Germany deep debit. You cannot argue your way out of the fact that Germany were 'The Baddies' in spades, and you must know that. "The Baddies" to this day, though? 2024? Here's a very contemporary reference. Earlier today I saw a video of England football fans, in Germany, chanting about 'bombers' and Rule Britannia and all of that. Too young to even have known Germany before reunification, I would say, most of them. Already anchored to the past, perhaps condemned to hate Germany because of some outdated English grievance. The current threat, from Europe, to this country, is from Putin 's Russia. In that country opposition is imprisoned, rivals killed, minorities persecuted, natural resources held hostage if other countries dare question the ruling regime, and mass murder carried out in Ukraine following an illegal invasion and continuing illegal war. Germany may not be in great economic nick at the moment, though at least they're mature enough to have rebuilt their country for the future, rather than this country's backwards and embarrassing "one World Cup and two World War" attitude. The baddies are the nation we fought in our last major war, its that simple. It's got nothing to do with politics now. If France had caused ww2 then they'd be the current baddies, it really is that simple. Germany has as many morons as us, both nations are as mature and immature as each other.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 16:47:48 GMT
I did not mean to prod you or to cause hurt, just point out that for many of us such feelings cannot be termed bizarre because they are not. There is real cause for where we are in our mind-set. You have a foot in both camps but you are far more distanced in time than people like me are. I lived on an RAF air station that was bombed and shot up twice during that period. I have no direct memories or trauma from it. But the graphic descriptions from my Mother of helping to remove a number of dead and dying young women from slit trenches near a runway will live with me forever. I am not going to get into trading incidents or blame and guilt because it serves no purpose and only inflames the rhetoric. I think that you need to come to terms with the judgment of history on WW2 as to the balance sheet of wrongs done. On that balance sheet we are in deep credit and Germany deep debit. You cannot argue your way out of the fact that Germany were 'The Baddies' in spades, and you must know that. "The Baddies" to this day, though? 2024? Here's a very contemporary reference. Earlier today I saw a video of England football fans, in Germany, chanting about 'bombers' and Rule Britannia and all of that. Too young to even have known Germany before reunification, I would say, most of them. Already anchored to the past, perhaps condemned to hate Germany because of some outdated English grievance. The current threat, from Europe, to this country, is from Putin 's Russia. In that country opposition is imprisoned, rivals killed, minorities persecuted, natural resources held hostage if other countries dare question the ruling regime, and mass murder carried out in Ukraine following an illegal invasion and continuing illegal war. Germany may not be in great economic nick at the moment, though at least they're mature enough to have rebuilt their country for the future, rather than this country's backwards and embarrassing "one World Cup and two World War" attitude. You need to come to Germany. You might be surprised what you find. You certainly won't find what you think.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 17:03:56 GMT
Back to France, and more fun has broken out. LR have entered another LR candidate against Eric Ciotti.
Elsewhere, various people have come out against the RN, but Mbappé has explicitly called for voting "against the extremes".
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Post by rcronald on Jun 16, 2024 17:06:03 GMT
Back to France, and more fun has broken out. LR have entered another LR candidate against Eric Ciotti. Elsewhere, various people have come out against the RN, but Mbappé has explicitly called for voting "against the extremes". You have to appreciate Mbappe unabashedly wanting lower taxes for himself. 🙂
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 17:10:39 GMT
Back to France, and more fun has broken out. LR have entered another LR candidate against Eric Ciotti. Elsewhere, various people have come out against the RN, but Mbappé has explicitly called for voting "against the extremes". You have to appreciate Mbappe unabashedly wanting lower taxes for himself. 🙂 Well he'll presumably be off non-domming in Spain, and enjoying the Beckham Law!
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 16, 2024 18:40:35 GMT
"The Baddies" to this day, though? 2024? Here's a very contemporary reference. Earlier today I saw a video of England football fans, in Germany, chanting about 'bombers' and Rule Britannia and all of that. Too young to even have known Germany before reunification, I would say, most of them. Already anchored to the past, perhaps condemned to hate Germany because of some outdated English grievance. The current threat, from Europe, to this country, is from Putin 's Russia. In that country opposition is imprisoned, rivals killed, minorities persecuted, natural resources held hostage if other countries dare question the ruling regime, and mass murder carried out in Ukraine following an illegal invasion and continuing illegal war. Germany may not be in great economic nick at the moment, though at least they're mature enough to have rebuilt their country for the future, rather than this country's backwards and embarrassing "one World Cup and two World War" attitude. The baddies are the nation we fought in our last major war, its that simple. It's got nothing to do with politics now. If France had caused ww2 then they'd be the current baddies, it really is that simple. Germany has as many morons as us, both nations are as mature and immature as each other. It had a few more concentration camps than all other nations put together and a lot of drifting smoke and poison gas in the air!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 18:57:14 GMT
The Ciotti story gets better. The Macronistas have decided to sit this one out.
LR v LR!
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Post by rcronald on Jun 16, 2024 19:19:43 GMT
The Ciotti story gets better. The Macronistas have decided to sit this one out. LR v LR! So it’s an Ens puppet vs a RN puppet? Btw, wouldn’t it hurt the credibility of the anti-Ciotti LR candidate?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 19:23:49 GMT
The Ciotti story gets better. The Macronistas have decided to sit this one out. LR v LR! So it’s an Ens puppet vs a RN puppet? Btw, wouldn’t it hurt the credibility of the anti-Ciotti LR candidate? We can safely discount credibility for anyone involved.
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 16, 2024 20:10:29 GMT
Which one do LFI endorse is the real question!
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Post by rcronald on Jun 16, 2024 20:12:24 GMT
No pro-Macron candidate against the creator of Macron (Hollande), but maybe it’s because of a secret alliance with the LR incumbent against RN.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 21:22:10 GMT
Which one do LFI endorse is the real question! Melenchon will just declare everyone who is not him to be a social fascist! Joking aside, he has a tendency to advise people not to vote for Le Pen but refuse to endorse Macron. He did endorse Hollande when he won. But then he wasn't as deranged and egotistical then.
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Post by jamie on Jun 16, 2024 21:27:50 GMT
Joking aside, he has a tendency to advise people not to vote for Le Pen but refuse to endorse Macron. He did endorse Hollande when he won. But then he wasn't as deranged and egotistical then.He was a lot more ‘far left standard-bearer’ rather than ‘cultist crank’.
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 16, 2024 21:32:09 GMT
Given the number and size of the egos involved it is possibly surprising that the French don't seem to go in for the Dutch thing of politicians naming parties/electoral lists after themselves....
On a more serious note, what happens if PS come out of these elections larger than LFI? Will they be able to reassert their position as the major party of the left or will it just be seen as a bit of an aberration?
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 16, 2024 21:34:31 GMT
Joking aside, he has a tendency to advise people not to vote for Le Pen but refuse to endorse Macron. He did endorse Hollande when he won. But then he wasn't as deranged and egotistical then.He was a lot more ‘far left standard-bearer’ rather than ‘cultist crank’. If crowds at festivals start singing "Ohhhhh Jean-Luc Méééé-len-chon" to the tune of Je ne regrette rien we'll be in real trouble!
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jun 16, 2024 21:43:24 GMT
On a more serious note, what happens if PS come out of these elections larger than LFI? Will they be able to reassert their position as the major party of the left or will it just be seen as a bit of an aberration? Yes, but that’s very unlikely as LFI have been allocated most of the safe seats and an even number of winnable ones.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 21:46:37 GMT
Given the number and size of the egos involved it is possibly surprising that the French don't seem to go in for the Dutch thing of politicians naming parties/electoral lists after themselves.... On a more serious note, what happens if PS come out of these elections larger than LFI? Will they be able to reassert their position as the major party of the left or will it just be seen as a bit of an aberration? French parties can't hold onto names long enough! Have there been other French parties named after their founders other than En Marche in recent years? On the second point, there has to be a chance of that, or at least a major reshaping with them involved. These cobbled-together coalitions can't go on forever, LFI are too bizarre for the average punter, and Melenchon is clearly determined to alienate enough of his pragmatists that an invitation to join something new would surely gather enough interested currents. A resurrected PS would make for a good hub.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 17, 2024 7:28:27 GMT
It's 60 constituencies without a Macronista candidate. And quite a mix- some LR, but also (as rcronald noted) not against Hollande and also not against the PCF boss Roussel. Jean Lassalle is back in the Pyrenees and aiming to get back into the assembly. Gilles le Gendre, the former LREM leader in the assembly, has been deselected but is running as an independent. He was accused of harassment by Rachida Dati, but no formal complaint was ever made, so presumably this is at the root of it. The tone this morning seems to be following Mbappé's comments about the extremes. Attal has now started speaking of the extremes as one bloc. This is probably sensible politics.
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Post by rcronald on Jun 17, 2024 7:33:13 GMT
It's 60 constituencies without a Macronista candidate. And quite a mix- some LR, but also (as rcronald noted) not against Hollande and also not against the PCF boss Roussel. Jean Lassalle is back in the Pyrenees and aiming to get back into the assembly. Gilles le Gender, the former LREM leader in the assembly, has been deselected but is running as an independent. He was accused of harassment by Rachida Dati, but no formal complaint was ever made, so presumably this is at the root of it. The tone this morning seems to be following Mbappé's comments about the extremes. Attal has now started speaking of the extremes as one bloc. This is probably sensible politics. Smart politics (but unlikely to give Ens a significant bump in the 1st round), as RN is no longer being viewed as particularly extreme compared to the left. I really don’t understand why Hollande is running, he’s extremely unpopular…
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 17, 2024 7:40:33 GMT
It's 60 constituencies without a Macronista candidate. And quite a mix- some LR, but also (as rcronald noted) not against Hollande and also not against the PCF boss Roussel. Jean Lassalle is back in the Pyrenees and aiming to get back into the assembly. Gilles le Gendre, the former LREM leader in the assembly, has been deselected but is running as an independent. He was accused of harassment by Rachida Dati, but no formal complaint was ever made, so presumably this is at the root of it. The tone this morning seems to be following Mbappé's comments about the extremes. Attal has now started speaking of the extremes as one bloc. This is probably sensible politics. Our own General Election seems very serene in comparison.
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