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Post by carlton43 on Jun 16, 2024 11:28:31 GMT
There's also his no less bizarre hatred of minority languages. Isn't that pretty mainstream in France though. One would hope so. The French do have redeeming features.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 16, 2024 11:34:16 GMT
Well in the broad sweep of history, the Germans were our mates and THE enemy was - of course - France. Its a bit like the debate amongst Man United fans on whether they should hate Liverpool or Man City more
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 11:46:37 GMT
Melenchon has now claimed that Leon Blum was nothing compared to Bompard and Panot.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 16, 2024 11:52:50 GMT
Because it's anachronistic self defeating nonsense. Looking at the record, my German family have as much reason to hate Britain and the French as we and the French do them, but that would be absurd. This continent tore itself apart for millennia, in part due to these ancient ethnic blood feuds. In the 21st century, and no doubt beyond, our threats are common and mostly external, or internal problems originating externally. These range from Russia, China and Iran, to mass migration, Islamism and the climate. As such, we Europeans should act accordingly and put aside petty squabbles about who did what to whom decades, centuries or millennia ago and work together to face down our common threats. No! Your family really do NOT have anything like as much reason to hate Britain as Britain does to hate Germany. Britain terror bombed cities and massacred, deliberately, hundreds of thousands of German civilians during the war. After the war, Britain then facilitated the ethnic cleansing, some might say genocide, of ancient German land to make up for Churchill's barefaced betrayal of the Poles and we looked away whilst German women and young girls were raped systematically by 'Uncle Joe's' minions. All while claiming moral high ground ofc. Meanwhile, during the Versailles period, Hofheim was occupied by the French, in the oppressive and arrogant manner you can imagine, whilst France and Belgium deliberately impoverished and pauperised the German nation. This was at the same time as demanding literally unpayable reparations, and while France tried to break up Germany and while France murdered German civilians, and while... Well, you get the picture. Personally, ofc, I think these hatreds and slights are in the past, where they should remain, and that it's time to move on. Maybe it's easier for me to say given my feet are in both camps, but, frankly, Anglo-French Teutophobia, and German Francophobia and Anglophobia are absurd and self defeating ideologies.
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Post by mrpastelito on Jun 16, 2024 11:58:03 GMT
There's also his no less bizarre hatred of minority languages. Isn't that pretty mainstream in France though. I'd have said what's mainstream is a total lack of interest.
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Post by islington on Jun 16, 2024 12:02:39 GMT
No! Your family really do NOT have anything like as much reason to hate Britain as Britain does to hate Germany. Britain terror bombed cities and massacred, deliberately, hundreds of thousands of German civilians during the war. After the war, Britain then facilitated the ethnic cleansing, some might say genocide, of ancient German land to make up for Churchill's barefaced betrayal of the Poles and we looked away whilst German women and young girls were raped systematically by 'Uncle Joe's' minions. All while claiming moral high ground ofc. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 16, 2024 12:05:19 GMT
Britain terror bombed cities and massacred, deliberately, hundreds of thousands of German civilians during the war. After the war, Britain then facilitated the ethnic cleansing, some might say genocide, of ancient German land to make up for Churchill's barefaced betrayal of the Poles and we looked away whilst German women and young girls were raped systematically by 'Uncle Joe's' minions. All while claiming moral high ground ofc. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Maybe, one could say the same about Versailles though (because I don't believe Germany responsible for WW1). Or perhaps it could just be said that multiple wrongs don't right each other?
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jun 16, 2024 12:16:43 GMT
There's also his no less bizarre hatred of minority languages. Isn't that pretty mainstream in France though. Well you should see how badly they do at Eurovision when they send songs in Breton.
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Post by islington on Jun 16, 2024 12:18:36 GMT
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Maybe, one could say the same about Versailles though (because I don't believe Germany responsible for WW1). Or perhaps it could just be said that multiple wrongs don't right each other? Everything you complained about related to WW2 and I responded accordingly. I stand by my response. If you choose to pursue an aggressive and expansionist foreign policy, backed by violence or threats of violence, then don't be surprised if other nations begin to use violence against you, and you're in a poor position to complain if that violence turns out to be more severe than you had bargained for. See the Tedder broadcast that was posted somewhere on the site not long ago - the one where he pointed out that it was somewhat naive of Germany to assume that she could launch devastating bombing raids against Warsaw, Rotterdam and London, but it was inconceivable that her own cities might have the same treatment meted out. If you want a debate about who was to blame for WW1, find or start a suitable thread and I promise to respond to your comments.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 16, 2024 12:54:12 GMT
Maybe, one could say the same about Versailles though (because I don't believe Germany responsible for WW1). Or perhaps it could just be said that multiple wrongs don't right each other? Everything you complained about related to WW2 and I responded accordingly. I stand by my response. If you choose to pursue an aggressive and expansionist foreign policy, backed by violence or threats of violence, then don't be surprised if other nations begin to use violence against you, and you're in a poor position to complain if that violence turns out to be more severe than you had bargained for. See the Tedder broadcast that was posted somewhere on the site not long ago - the one where he pointed out that it was somewhat naive of Germany to assume that she could launch devastating bombing raids against Warsaw, Rotterdam and London, but it was inconceivable that her own cities might have the same treatment meted out. If you want a debate about who was to blame for WW1, find or start a suitable thread and I promise to respond to your comments. Did you read the second paragraph in the second post? As for the, err, "whirlwind", to a point. I can, and FWIW largely do, accept that in regards to the bombing etc. the Nazi government was primarily responsible. Though, I'd remind you, many at the time recognised that such blanket bombing was wrong and, frankly, criminal. However, that was only one part of the post which you're referring to. I note you don't refer to all of it. I also mentioned, in the first post which is the one you're referring to, what happened immediately after the war which cannot be separated from the goings on during the war. When the Allies were rightly hanging the Nazis at Nürnberg, the Soviets, who were on the judging panel, were doing much the same to German civilians in the East, and with the knowledge and open approval of Britain in regards to the ethnic cleansing. Indeed, the ethnic cleansing of Germans from their land was Churchill's idea which he suggested to the Poles and Czechs as early as 1942. As such, you have to be careful with such insulting simplistic and blanket statements about a "whirlwind". Moreover, the expulsions, the expellees, the rapes etc. They've been forgotten in Britain, in so far that they've ever actually been acknowledged, but they haven't been forgotten in Germany. After all, why do you think so many Germans are reluctant to risk conflagration with the Russians? It isn't simply German decadence, cowardice etc.
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Jun 16, 2024 13:17:20 GMT
Maybe, one could say the same about Versailles though (because I don't believe Germany responsible for WW1). Or perhaps it could just be said that multiple wrongs don't right each other? See the Tedder broadcast that was posted somewhere on the site not long ago - the one where he pointed out that it was somewhat naive of Germany to assume that she could launch devastating bombing raids against Warsaw, Rotterdam and London, but it was inconceivable that her own cities might have the same treatment meted out. It wasn't Air Marshal Tedder who gave it, but 'Bomber' Harris.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 16, 2024 13:33:38 GMT
Anyway, back to the French election, Serge Klarsfeld, the Nazi hunter, has backed the Rally if they face the left. It isn't a suprise given he's been pretty warm about Le Pen for a while, but still a bit of a boon for her nonetheless.
Also, Bruno Le Maire has become the latest Macroniste to put a little distance between himself and Macron over the decision to go for elections.
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Post by rcronald on Jun 16, 2024 13:49:48 GMT
Anyway, back to the French election, Serge Klarsfeld, the Nazi hunter, has backed the Rally if they face the left. It isn't a suprise given he's been pretty warm about Le Pen for a while, but still a bit of a boon for her nonetheless. Also, Bruno Le Maire has become the latest Macroniste to put a little distance between himself and Macron over the decision to go for elections. Alain Finkielkraut also said that he’d vote RN over NFP a couple of days ago.
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Post by islington on Jun 16, 2024 13:58:23 GMT
See the Tedder broadcast that was posted somewhere on the site not long ago - the one where he pointed out that it was somewhat naive of Germany to assume that she could launch devastating bombing raids against Warsaw, Rotterdam and London, but it was inconceivable that her own cities might have the same treatment meted out. It wasn't Air Marshal Tedder who gave it, but 'Bomber' Harris. Thanks. I thought it was Tedder and I posted it somewhere on this site, but I now can't find it either here or on Youtube.
But the salient point remains. When Germany was bombing London, Liverpool and Coventry, it was all perfectly fine with them: but when Cologne, Hamburg and Dresden got the same treatment it was "Ach! Nein, nein! Das ist nicht cricket!"
(Happy to have my doubtless deplorable German corrected (but I'm pretty sure that 'cricket' in German is 'cricket').)
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2024 14:02:52 GMT
It's not a great time to be Jewish and French. The winners are going to be either people you suspect are hostile to you, or people who openly are hostile towards you.
Plus, your average French Jew is completely plugged into mainstream French culture, and some of the country's best-loved entertainers are Jewish. MLP's narrative on threats to French culture will have some appeal.
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Jun 16, 2024 14:04:18 GMT
It wasn't Air Marshal Tedder who gave it, but 'Bomber' Harris. Thanks. I thought it was Tedder and I posted it somewhere on this site, but I now can't find it either here or on Youtube. The search function on this site is Godawful. I wish it could be sorted out for good. Here is the newsreel in question: The relevant comments are about thirty seconds in. (" The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them...")
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2024 15:03:14 GMT
Thanks. I thought it was Tedder and I posted it somewhere on this site, but I now can't find it either here or on Youtube. The search function on this site is Godawful. I wish it could be sorted out for good. Here is the newsreel in question: The relevant comments are about thirty seconds in. (" The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them...") I remember that when we had this conversation before, I was bewildered because I thought that Harris’s speech was extremely famous (having been included in “The World At War”) and I didn’t remember the name of Tedder at all. I am also eqally bewildered by the inadequacy of the search thingy, such thatI can’t find the earlier conversation.
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 16, 2024 15:04:33 GMT
It would be useful to be able to hear that exchange without the noisy background hubbub. Not sure what accent the lady had? She's from the South West, quite a distinctive accent but clear. I have been told that my French has a slight Aquitainian accent, most obvious in words with ai or ll. I am unconvinced that this is particularly true though
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 16, 2024 16:14:03 GMT
What is bizarre about a Frenchman hating Germany? Or an Englishman? Look at the record! Because it's anachronistic self defeating nonsense. Looking at the record, my German family have as much reason to hate Britain and the French as we and the French do them, but that would be absurd. This continent tore itself apart for millennia, in part due to these ancient ethnic blood feuds. In the 21st century, and no doubt beyond, our threats are common and mostly external, or internal problems originating externally. These range from Russia, China and Iran, to mass migration, Islamism and the climate. As such, we Europeans should act accordingly and put aside petty squabbles about who did what to whom decades, centuries or millennia ago and work together to face down our common threats. I did not mean to prod you or to cause hurt, just point out that for many of us such feelings cannot be termed bizarre because they are not. There is real cause for where we are in our mind-set. You have a foot in both camps but you are far more distanced in time than people like me are. I lived on an RAF air station that was bombed and shot up twice during that period. I have no direct memories or trauma from it. But the graphic descriptions from my Mother of helping to remove a number of dead and dying young women from slit trenches near a runway will live with me forever. I am not going to get into trading incidents or blame and guilt because it serves no purpose and only inflames the rhetoric. I think that you need to come to terms with the judgment of history on WW2 as to the balance sheet of wrongs done. On that balance sheet we are in deep credit and Germany deep debit. You cannot argue your way out of the fact that Germany were 'The Baddies' in spades, and you must know that.
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jun 16, 2024 16:31:27 GMT
Because it's anachronistic self defeating nonsense. Looking at the record, my German family have as much reason to hate Britain and the French as we and the French do them, but that would be absurd. This continent tore itself apart for millennia, in part due to these ancient ethnic blood feuds. In the 21st century, and no doubt beyond, our threats are common and mostly external, or internal problems originating externally. These range from Russia, China and Iran, to mass migration, Islamism and the climate. As such, we Europeans should act accordingly and put aside petty squabbles about who did what to whom decades, centuries or millennia ago and work together to face down our common threats. I did not mean to prod you or to cause hurt, just point out that for many of us such feelings cannot be termed bizarre because they are not. There is real cause for where we are in our mind-set. You have a foot in both camps but you are far more distanced in time than people like me are. I lived on an RAF air station that was bombed and shot up twice during that period. I have no direct memories or trauma from it. But the graphic descriptions from my Mother of helping to remove a number of dead and dying young women from slit trenches near a runway will live with me forever. I am not going to get into trading incidents or blame and guilt because it serves no purpose and only inflames the rhetoric. I think that you need to come to terms with the judgment of history on WW2 as to the balance sheet of wrongs done. On that balance sheet we are in deep credit and Germany deep debit. You cannot argue your way out of the fact that Germany were 'The Baddies' in spades, and you must know that. "The Baddies" to this day, though? 2024? Here's a very contemporary reference. Earlier today I saw a video of England football fans, in Germany, chanting about 'bombers' and Rule Britannia and all of that. Too young to even have known Germany before reunification, I would say, most of them. Already anchored to the past, perhaps condemned to hate Germany because of some outdated English grievance. The current threat, from Europe, to this country, is from Putin 's Russia. In that country opposition is imprisoned, rivals killed, minorities persecuted, natural resources held hostage if other countries dare question the ruling regime, and mass murder carried out in Ukraine following an illegal invasion and continuing illegal war. Germany may not be in great economic nick at the moment, though at least they're mature enough to have rebuilt their country for the future, rather than this country's backwards and embarrassing "one World Cup and two World War" attitude.
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