right
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Post by right on Jun 20, 2024 8:07:46 GMT
There's no question in (non-demon) eyes. Many people on the left lose their shit about Keir Starmer because of his wife's ethnicity & the fact that his children are Jewish. And many others accept the "analysis" of such people without properly questioning it. Of course many left-wing criticisms of Starmer are valid; but some are wild & unjustified. Some may lose it because he's Jewish, but many leftwingers don't seem that bothered by his support for Israel - they're against it but it's what they expect of a Labour leader who's not Corbyn. It's the fact that he said he was of the left and then jettisoned all that, many believe he's a fundamentally duplicitous man. Blair at least went through a journey and took his time fully coming to terms with the real world, with Starmer the left wing beliefs were just a convenient suit of clothes. I think that this overstates the amount Starmer's moved - I think he's lying positioning himself to swing voters as much if not more than he was to the left. But it's not what I think that's important. Whatever, from my unscientific sampling most of the left seem if anything underestimate Britain's influence of Gaza and it's not the reason they distrust Starmer. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2024 8:11:37 GMT
Carla is a smart cookie based on her showing in the C4 immigration debate. As is Sian in Brighton.
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msc
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Post by msc on Jun 20, 2024 8:14:18 GMT
If Keir Starmer has jettisoned all of the left wing stuff, why is his 2024 manifesto roughly about 60-70% the same as Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto in 2019?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2024 8:18:57 GMT
If Keir Starmer has jettisoned all of the left wing stuff, why is his 2024 manifesto roughly about 60-70% the same as Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto in 2019? Because the product was never the problem, it was the salesman that sunk it. It is VERY HARD to go from maverick back bencher to Prime Ministerial material;. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 20, 2024 8:42:56 GMT
If Keir Starmer has jettisoned all of the left wing stuff, why is his 2024 manifesto roughly about 60-70% the same as Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto in 2019? source? |
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msc
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Post by msc on Jun 20, 2024 9:02:30 GMT
If Keir Starmer has jettisoned all of the left wing stuff, why is his 2024 manifesto roughly about 60-70% the same as Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto in 2019? source? Your source is me, and indeed anyone else who went to the trouble of reading both Labour manifestos at the time of publication. Here is a small list of some of the policies in both of them: Aiming for net-zero carbon by 2030 New wind turbines, lots of solar panels, nuclear power Trials into tidal energy Upgrade every UK home to energy efficiency standards, apparently. Permanent ban on fracking. Windfall tax on energy companies Councils to take public ownership of bus networks Nationalising the rail networks Rail expansion Increased protection of National Parks and reserves 5.6 billion to flood defences Extensive tree planting. Creation of new National Parks and protection of wildlife sites. Ban snares End badger culls Ban on the importation of hunting trophies NI/income tax frozen No increases in VAT. Early screening rates for cancer, strokes and heart disease. Mental health care funding Updating of the Mental Health Act Improve access to psychological therapy. Recruiting school counsellors Vaccination Action Plan Free school meals for all primary kids. Increase in police and prison officer numbers. National Youth Service for access to local youth work (?) Review of the care system Charter of Digital Rights to protect folk online (online safety act) Review into dodgy football club owners Strengthening protections for whistle-blowers/rights against unfair dismissal £10 an hour living wage for 16+ year old workers. Banning zero hour contracts Removing a hostile government environment against disabled people Fire safety in all high rises. 150000 new houses per year (now upped to 350 000 by the 2024 manifesto) Ending homelessness Reduce the voting age to 16. Nuclear energy expansion The right for local communities to buy their local pub when endangered. And there's probably stuff I missed because there's 160 odd pages of stuff. The headline stuff from 2019 (free broadband for all, UBI) is gone but most of the stuff beneath is either in there or is now no longer relevant (like the Brexit referendum bit in 2019). |
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right
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Post by right on Jun 20, 2024 9:09:22 GMT
Your source is me, and indeed anyone else who went to the trouble of reading both Labour manifestos at the time of publication. Here is a small list of some of the policies in both of them: Aiming for net-zero carbon by 2030 New wind turbines, lots of solar panels, nuclear power Trials into tidal energy Upgrade every UK home to energy efficiency standards, apparently. Permanent ban on fracking. Windfall tax on energy companies Councils to take public ownership of bus networks Nationalising the rail networks Rail expansion Increased protection of National Parks and reserves 5.6 billion to flood defences Extensive tree planting. Creation of new National Parks and protection of wildlife sites. Ban snares End badger culls Ban on the importation of hunting trophies NI/income tax frozen No increases in VAT. Early screening rates for cancer, strokes and heart disease. Mental health care funding Updating of the Mental Health Act Improve access to psychological therapy. Recruiting school counsellors Vaccination Action Plan Free school meals for all primary kids. Increase in police and prison officer numbers. National Youth Service for access to local youth work (?) Review of the care system Charter of Digital Rights to protect folk online (online safety act) Review into dodgy football club owners Strengthening protections for whistle-blowers/rights against unfair dismissal £10 an hour living wage for 16+ year old workers. Banning zero hour contracts Removing a hostile government environment against disabled people Fire safety in all high rises. 150000 new houses per year (now upped to 350 000 by the 2024 manifesto) Ending homelessness Reduce the voting age to 16. Nuclear energy expansion The right for local communities to buy their local pub when endangered. And there's probably stuff I missed because there's 160 odd pages of stuff. The headline stuff from 2019 (free broadband for all, UBI) is gone but most of the stuff beneath is either in there or is now no longer relevant (like the Brexit referendum bit in 2019). It's a reasonable point (the 2017 manifesto was largely Milliband's) but on headline issues Starmer does have a reputation of selling on left wing issue - and less noticed European issues - whenever there's signifcant push back. To me that's what a good politician does, although his execution on these could certainly be improved. But as my name suggests I'm not of the left so have some challenges commenting on their motives. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 20, 2024 11:01:15 GMT
Apart from Muslims most people don't really care about Israel/Palestine, no. But a demographic that very much *does* is the "BoHo" one which is of course massively well represented here. In fact many of the most fanatical obsessives of all on this topic - and also the likeliest to stray off into various at least AS-adjacent conspiracy theories - are to be found in this group. I can assure you that Jews care a very great deal about Israel/Palestine in almost every single case even if one Jew does not necessarily agree with another Of course, and I never meant to imply otherwise. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Jun 20, 2024 14:25:57 GMT
Apart from Muslims most people don't really care about Israel/Palestine, no. But a demographic that very much *does* is the "BoHo" one which is of course massively well represented here. In fact many of the most fanatical obsessives of all on this topic - and also the likeliest to stray off into various at least AS-adjacent conspiracy theories - are to be found in this group. I’m not sure, Bish, I think most people do care, as they do about any humanitarian crisis, just not enough to change their vote. For very some good reasons. There is next to bugger-all that any government can do about Israel, with the 'possible' exception of the USA. There is very little difference on the issue between the credible political parties here about this issue. |
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Post by gerrardwinstanley on Jun 20, 2024 14:26:23 GMT
I can assure you that Jews care a very great deal about Israel/Palestine in almost every single case even if one Jew does not necessarily agree with another Of course, and I never meant to imply otherwise. But that's what you did imply in your opening sentence. There are people - unlike many on here - whose main political concerns are not the inner workings of bureaucratic party machines, or toeing the party line and collective thinking, but who care about justice and genocide. While your major concern might be making Labour "electable", mine might to be "fanatically obsessing" over the death of 40,000+ Palestinians, the complete destruction of Gaza, and the continuing hostage crisis. I think it is telling that Akehurst's video starts with his main aim of turning the Labour party into a "party that can win again", because that, at the end of the day, is all party hacks fundamentally care about: "the first objective and also the ultimate goal of any political party is its own growth", to quote Simone Weil. |
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Post by batman on Jun 20, 2024 20:37:28 GMT
I’m not sure, Bish, I think most people do care, as they do about any humanitarian crisis, just not enough to change their vote. For very some good reasons. There is next to bugger-all that any government can do about Israel, with the 'possible' exception of the USA. There is very little difference on the issue between the credible political parties here about this issue. you're obviously right. But today I saw a leaflet in Ealing Southall urging people to register to "vote for Palestine" (it's too late to do so now). It said "your vote could help free Palestine". Which is gollocks. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2024 20:42:49 GMT
I do know that Labour people locally are very very worried about this seat. I think some people are underestimating the extent to which Israel/Palestine/Starmer is a Tory/Labour are fascists type thinking exists here - and many of the working class areas that are likely to remain loyal to Labour have been removed from this seat. Everything I have seen and heard suggests the Greens are on for a win and possibly a fairly comfortable one
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Post by froome on Jun 20, 2024 21:42:18 GMT
I do know that Labour people locally are very very worried about this seat. I think some people are underestimating the extent to which Israel/Palestine/Starmer is a Tory/Labour are fascists type thinking exists here - and many of the working class areas that are likely to remain loyal to Labour have been removed from this seat. Everything I have seen and heard suggests the Greens are on for a win and possibly a fairly comfortable one Interesting, as I have the feeling that Green people locally are worried that won't take the seat. I suspect there will be a lot of people making their decision how to vote when they actually get into the polling booth. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 20, 2024 21:57:44 GMT
I do know that Labour people locally are very very worried about this seat . I think some people are underestimating the extent to which Israel/Palestine/Starmer is a Tory/Labour are fascists type thinking exists here - and many of the working class areas that are likely to remain loyal to Labour have been removed from this seat. Everything I have seen and heard suggests the Greens are on for a win and possibly a fairly comfortable one It's very possible that I am underestimating it. Or at least, I'm not really estimating it at all, as I don't have enough to go on. What I'm noting is that the Green Party strategy seems to assume that it very much does, and I wonder whether that will be borne out or whether it is the result of living online. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Jun 20, 2024 22:02:27 GMT
I do know that Labour people locally are very very worried about this seat . I think some people are underestimating the extent to which Israel/Palestine/Starmer is a Tory/Labour are fascists type thinking exists here - and many of the working class areas that are likely to remain loyal to Labour have been removed from this seat. Everything I have seen and heard suggests the Greens are on for a win and possibly a fairly comfortable one It's very possible that I am underestimating it. Or at least, I'm not really estimating it at all, as I don't have enough to go on. What I'm noting is that the Green Party strategy seems to assume that it very much does, and I wonder whether that will be borne out or whether it is the result of living online. Very much so. People vote for a wide variety of reasons and we haven’t much of a clue as to which way the key voters will go in a seat like this. |
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birkinabe
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Post by birkinabe on Jun 20, 2024 22:12:28 GMT
I do know that Labour people locally are very very worried about this seat . I think some people are underestimating the extent to which Israel/Palestine/Starmer is a Tory/Labour are fascists type thinking exists here - and many of the working class areas that are likely to remain loyal to Labour have been removed from this seat. Everything I have seen and heard suggests the Greens are on for a win and possibly a fairly comfortable one It's very possible that I am underestimating it. Or at least, I'm not really estimating it at all, as I don't have enough to go on. What I'm noting is that the Green Party strategy seems to assume that it very much does, and I wonder whether that will be borne out or whether it is the result of living online. I would guess both to varying extents, although as far as being 'too online' goes, a campaign here focusing on Israel/Palestine (and to a lesser extent left-wing disapproval of Starmer/Labour under his leadership) to the extent the Greens have is relatively mild in that respect at this point tbh, and I say that as someone who doesn't think Corbyn will win in Islington North. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 21, 2024 11:13:18 GMT
Of course, and I never meant to imply otherwise. But that's what you did imply in your opening sentence. There are people - unlike many on here - whose main political concerns are not the inner workings of bureaucratic party machines, or toeing the party line and collective thinking, but who care about justice and genocide. While your major concern might be making Labour "electable", mine might to be "fanatically obsessing" over the death of 40,000+ Palestinians, the complete destruction of Gaza, and the continuing hostage crisis. I think it is telling that Akehurst's video starts with his main aim of turning the Labour party into a "party that can win again", because that, at the end of the day, is all party hacks fundamentally care about: "the first objective and also the ultimate goal of any political party is its own growth", to quote Simone Weil. There is nothing wrong with people caring deeply about the Israel/Palestine situation. What many of us do find slightly suspicious are those (especially from a background that implies no actual stake in the issue) who monomaniacally fixate on it to the exclusion of all else, particularly when they have said or done precisely nothing about any of the other terrible things happening in the world. And, though you may not like to hear this, at the end of the day even this countries actual power to affect what is happening in Gaza is extremely limited (as you may have noticed even Biden can't get Bibi to do what he wants) The influence of UK opposition parties on it is as close to absolute zero as makes no difference. Some of us still think that they should also spend some time on stuff they can actually change. |
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Post by gerrardwinstanley on Jun 21, 2024 19:21:42 GMT
But that's what you did imply in your opening sentence. There are people - unlike many on here - whose main political concerns are not the inner workings of bureaucratic party machines, or toeing the party line and collective thinking, but who care about justice and genocide. While your major concern might be making Labour "electable", mine might to be "fanatically obsessing" over the death of 40,000+ Palestinians, the complete destruction of Gaza, and the continuing hostage crisis. I think it is telling that Akehurst's video starts with his main aim of turning the Labour party into a "party that can win again", because that, at the end of the day, is all party hacks fundamentally care about: "the first objective and also the ultimate goal of any political party is its own growth", to quote Simone Weil. There is nothing wrong with people caring deeply about the Israel/Palestine situation. What many of us do find slightly suspicious are those (especially from a background that implies no actual stake in the issue) who monomaniacally fixate on it to the exclusion of all else, particularly when they have said or done precisely nothing about any of the other terrible things happening in the world. And, though you may not like to hear this, at the end of the day even this countries actual power to affect what is happening in Gaza is extremely limited (as you may have noticed even Biden can't get Bibi to do what he wants) The influence of UK opposition parties on it is as close to absolute zero as makes no difference. Some of us still think that they should also spend some time on stuff they can actually change. Why, I think, the Israel-Palestine situation is sometimes fixated on more than other conflicts and state-sanctioned acts of violence - not that groups/individuals on the left are not vocal on these either - is that Isreal is a close ally of the US and UK, and championed as an example of democracy in the middle east. Repeatedly, however, the Israeli state has violated human rights, enacted extreme violence at targeted groups, and discriminates against Palestinians and Arab Israelis. While I agree that the UK government has little (to no) influence on Israel's actions, it can do something - e.g., suspending arm sales to Israel, as Thatcher did in 1982. Similarly, I will not vote for a party - e.g., the Labour party - who continually opposed a ceasefire and, at times, appeared to justify Israel's violation of international law. Starmer is a weathervane, and only turned towards a ceasefire after others did. I also agree that British politicians should spend some time on stuff they can actually change, it's just a pity that the Labour leadership, despite its election slogan, has very little interest in anything that resembles much change. |
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Post by markfoster on Jun 21, 2024 19:58:14 GMT
I also wonder a bit about the prominence of Keir Starmer in the references to Labour. The assumption seems to be that he is some sort of hate figure. Again, this is something quite common in leftist circles, especially among people who have defected to the Greens from labour, but I wonder whether it is really A Thing among normie voters. Bristol became a major centre of Corbynism. Local CLPs expanded a great deal under his leadership. When he stepped down, a lot of those people left. The manner in which the party treated him caused more to leave and embittered quite a few. Starmer is therefore the target of much of that anger, and attcking him is an effective way of reaching former Labour members and supporters. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Jun 21, 2024 22:19:16 GMT
I also wonder a bit about the prominence of Keir Starmer in the references to Labour. The assumption seems to be that he is some sort of hate figure. Again, this is something quite common in leftist circles, especially among people who have defected to the Greens from labour, but I wonder whether it is really A Thing among normie voters. Bristol became a major centre of Corbynism. Local CLPs expanded a great deal under his leadership. When he stepped down, a lot of those people left. The manner in which the party treated him caused more to leave and embittered quite a few. Starmer is therefore the target of much of that anger, and attcking him is an effective way of reaching former Labour members and supporters. Well, that's really my point. I'm sure it goes over well with ex-Lab members and the very politically engaged, and I expect that is a relatively high proportion of this particular electorate. But we've all had the sort of conversations on the doorstep where voters can't remember who the party leader even is. I think it might be an error for a local Green Party boosted by Corbynite defectors to assume that the views of the latter reflect those of the general public. The Momentumites weren't generally renowned for having their fingers on the national pulse. But it will be interesting to see how it goes. |
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