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Post by batman on Jul 12, 2024 9:28:49 GMT
In some cases that might be a justifiable thing to say. However, I'd say that more pertinent is that Jeremy Corbyn became Leader of the Labour Party because the other three candidates fought rotten leadership campaigns. That's why Corbyn got the votes of many people who were not by any means naturally aligned to his views.
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Clark
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Post by Clark on Jul 12, 2024 9:33:06 GMT
I thought he won the leadership contest because most members (unlike a lot of Labour MP's) are traditionally more old Labour with left wing / socialist values and therefore Corbyn would appeal to them more than the other candidates.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 12, 2024 9:33:27 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party because Labour Party members were stupid. did 12 million people vote to make him PM for the same reason? |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 12, 2024 9:34:04 GMT
Nobody voted to make Corbyn Prime Minister.
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jul 12, 2024 9:36:42 GMT
In some cases that might be a justifiable thing to say. However, I'd say that more pertinent is that Jeremy Corbyn became Leader of the Labour Party because the other three candidates fought rotten leadership campaigns. That's why Corbyn got the votes of many people who were not by any means naturally aligned to his views.Is that an admission  |
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edgbaston
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Post by edgbaston on Jul 12, 2024 9:47:41 GMT
This is the mistake the left made with the labour leadership. Members liked Jeremy. It wasn't necessarily what he said but it was him saying it. Once he was gone there wasn't anyone to replace him Also, and this is much less true of the *active* membership, but a lot of Labour members are sexist old men. There’s no other explanation for some of the conversations I had while telephone canvassing in the last leadership election. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jul 12, 2024 9:57:26 GMT
In some cases that might be a justifiable thing to say. However, I'd say that more pertinent is that Jeremy Corbyn became Leader of the Labour Party because the other three candidates fought rotten leadership campaigns. That's why Corbyn got the votes of many people who were not by any means naturally aligned to his views. Had the other three contenders stepped down from the Shadow Cabinet whilst the Leadership campaign continued, they would have been free to oppose Osborne's Welfare proposals. Corbyn wpould not have stood out in the way he did , and whilst he would still have polled well he would not have been elected. When he stood, he did not expect to win. |
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Post by johnloony on Jul 12, 2024 10:01:05 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party because Labour Party members were stupid. did 12 million people vote to make him PM for the same reason? People who voted for the Labour Party in the general elections of 2017 and 2019, when Jeremy Corbyn was leader, were stupid ipso facto, albeit that they did not vote for him to become prime minister. |
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Post by willpower3 on Jul 12, 2024 10:06:21 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party because Labour Party members were stupid. Blame the (s)electorate. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Jul 12, 2024 10:06:47 GMT
did 12 million people vote to make him PM for the same reason? People who voted for the Labour Party in the general elections of 2017 and 2019, when Jeremy Corbyn was leader, were stupid ipso facto, albeit that they did not vote for him to become prime minister. There are others who argue that those who vote Tory or Reform are ipso facto stupid - and examples of 'a lower form of life.' |
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Post by johnloony on Jul 12, 2024 10:30:38 GMT
People who voted for the Labour Party in the general elections of 2017 and 2019, when Jeremy Corbyn was leader, were stupid ipso facto, albeit that they did not vote for him to become prime minister. There are others who argue that those who vote Tory or Reform are ipso facto stupid - and examples of 'a lower form of life.' They are incorrect to do so. |
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Post by batman on Jul 12, 2024 10:40:44 GMT
In some cases that might be a justifiable thing to say. However, I'd say that more pertinent is that Jeremy Corbyn became Leader of the Labour Party because the other three candidates fought rotten leadership campaigns. That's why Corbyn got the votes of many people who were not by any means naturally aligned to his views.Is that an admission No. I was aligned with the organised left of the party at that time - I no longer am - and was always going to vote for him. However, some relatives of mine who would not normally be likely to vote for the left challenger were attracted to vote for him by the fact that his campaign was clearly better than those of Kendall, Burnham & Cooper. My wife is the only member of my close family who was a Labour Party member & did not vote for Corbyn, and she is pretty smug about this now. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jul 12, 2024 10:44:06 GMT
Is that an admission No. I was aligned with the organised left of the party at that time - I no longer am - and was always going to vote for him. However, some relatives of mine who would not normally be likely to vote for the left challenger were attracted to vote for him by the fact that his campaign was clearly better than those of Kendall, Burnham & Cooper. My wife is the only member of my close family who was a Labour Party member & did not vote for Corbyn, and she is pretty smug about this now. Its interesting how organised labour are internally within the rank and file membership. The tory party doesn't really have any of that. |
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right
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Post by right on Jul 12, 2024 10:56:14 GMT
Nobody voted to make Corbyn Prime Minister. Some people campaigned both in 2017 and 2019, and they need to be continually reminded of it when they try to get out of their pot |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 12, 2024 11:07:20 GMT
did 12 million people vote to make him PM for the same reason? People who voted for the Labour Party in the general elections of 2017 and 2019, when Jeremy Corbyn was leader, were stupid ipso facto, albeit that they did not vote for him to become prime minister. have you ever considered people share a different opinion to you? |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 12, 2024 11:09:24 GMT
This is the mistake the left made with the labour leadership. Members liked Jeremy. It wasn't necessarily what he said but it was him saying it. Once he was gone there wasn't anyone to replace him Also, and this is much less true of the *active* membership, but a lot of Labour members are sexist old men. There’s no other explanation for some of the conversations I had while telephone canvassing in the last leadership election. this is true though polls all showed that John McDonnell didn't have the same pull Corbyn had |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 12, 2024 11:49:45 GMT
Is that an admission No. I was aligned with the organised left of the party at that time - I no longer am - and was always going to vote for him. However, some relatives of mine who would not normally be likely to vote for the left challenger were attracted to vote for him by the fact that his campaign was clearly better than those of Kendall, Burnham & Cooper. My wife is the only member of my close family who was a Labour Party member & did not vote for Corbyn, and she is pretty smug about this now. I've never really understood your position with Corbyn. There are some who will have supported him happily in the knowledge that he was a terrorist sympathiser, because they shared those sympathies, though I would think this group was a minority. There were presumably a larger group (perhaps predominantly younger) who were naive and for whom Corbyn was a relatively unknown quantity, who then may subsequently have discovered his dodgy associations and resiled from him. But you are older than me and have been very active in the Labour party all your adult life. You must have been well aware from the 1980s onwards (as I was) that Corbyn was a supporter of Arab and Irish terrorists, yet you talk as if you were some naive youngster who only subsequently became aware. |
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Post by eastmidlandsright on Jul 12, 2024 12:01:45 GMT
No. I was aligned with the organised left of the party at that time - I no longer am - and was always going to vote for him. However, some relatives of mine who would not normally be likely to vote for the left challenger were attracted to vote for him by the fact that his campaign was clearly better than those of Kendall, Burnham & Cooper. My wife is the only member of my close family who was a Labour Party member & did not vote for Corbyn, and she is pretty smug about this now. I've never really understood your position with Corbyn. There are some who will have supported him happily in the knowledge that he was a terrorist sympathiser, because they shared those sympathies, though I would think this group was a minority. There were presumably a larger group (perhaps predominantly younger) who were naive and for whom Corbyn was a relatively unknown quantity, who then may subsequently have discovered his dodgy associations and resiled from him. But you are older than me and have been very active in the Labour party all your adult life. You must have been well aware from the 1980s onwards (as I was) that Corbyn was a supporter of Arab and Irish terrorists, yet you talk as if you were some naive youngster who only subsequently became aware. The uncharitable view is that batman was fine with Corbyn's beliefs until his leadership led to a rise of antisemitism in the Labour Party. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jul 12, 2024 12:06:42 GMT
We all make mistakes.
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Post by batman on Jul 12, 2024 12:21:56 GMT
I have to plead guilty to some extent. But I had always accepted his explanations that he didn't really support Hamas - I still don't think that he was in support of terrorist acts by the IRA, although he sympathized with Sinn Fein politically, which are not the same things as each other - and that he didn't support repression in, for example, Cuba or other Stalinist countries. As I became more critical of him for a number of reasons, I have become less inclined to accept his explanations of certain other things. It wasn't just antisemitism, although that is a very important issue for me; for example, I found his initial response to the poisonings in Salisbury inexcusable. He is not quite a Galloway; Galloway is a shill for reactionary régimes ranging from Saddam Hussein to Bashir al-Assad, and Corbyn has not given those appalling people the kind of cover given to them by Galloway. I am a supporter of a socialist transformation of society, and saw the left wing of the Labour Party as the likeliest vehicle for it in this country. I think that I underestimated the problematic nature of some of Corbyn's views on international matters, not just antisemitism. Even the JLM which is aligned further towards the right of the party than me found itself able to live at least to some degree with Corbyn's leadership, although generally critical of it, but like me found that after the 2017 election things became substantially worse. I'd say that I'm guilty of not fully understanding his views on some matters and coming too late to a realisation that not only were some of his supporters possessed of particularly unacceptable views, not just on antisemitism but on other things, but that he too held views that I couldn't accept. In short, I still want the left to do well, but it has to be a left that doesn't support Russia, China, Hamas, or Venezuela (to give a few examples), one without the sort of baggage that Corbyn has carried. There are MPs who step up to that plate, but not many of them, and they're not currently that influential. In the past I felt that the international policies of people like Corbyn were, at least to some extent, a price worth paying in order to see more left-wing policies at home, but I don't think I can justify that to myself or others any more. Another important event which has confirmed my shift away from the organised left was the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, after Ukraine got rid of its nuclear weapons. To me, that makes the policies of CND untenable. It's taken a long time for me to come to that realisation and I feel duped and foolish. So criticism of me is fair on this, at least to quite a degree, although eastmidlandsright goes a bit too far in suggesting that everything was OK except the antisemitism. It really wasn't just that. Probably Pete still doesn't understand, and maybe I will never make him understand fully.
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