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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 17, 2024 10:01:36 GMT
Labour are going to be very wary of a decapitation strategy. They will be much keener to maximise their gains ranging from the relatively bread-and-butter to the realistic outside bets. In Norfolk there are better chances elsewhere even though only Norwich North looks doable other than in a complete Tory meltdown This is the sort of seat where decapitation will probably benefit the Conservatives. Truss going would help any new face wanting to set a new direction. After 1997, the party could rely on the likes of Howard and Clarke being around. Solid characters with gravitas and who commanded respect even amongst people who didn't like them and were glad that the Tories were out. Truss is nowhere near that. |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 10:45:12 GMT
Labour are going to be very wary of a decapitation strategy. They will be much keener to maximise their gains ranging from the relatively bread-and-butter to the realistic outside bets. In Norfolk there are better chances elsewhere even though only Norwich North looks doable other than in a complete Tory meltdown This is the sort of seat where decapitation will probably benefit the Conservatives. Truss going would help any new face wanting to set a new direction. After 1997, the party could rely on the likes of Howard and Clarke being around. Solid characters with gravitas and who commanded respect even amongst people who didn't like them and were glad that the Tories were out. Truss is nowhere near that. Truss does have a coherent liberal vision though. She didn't consistently governing in that style, but the vision is still there - and the Tories tend to lose when they're boasting about how statist they are. I'd agree that some Tories would want her out of the way and that Labour wouldn't - and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bagge was getting money and advice from outside the constituency in order to weaken or perhaps eliminate Truss. That's where there could be a decapitation strategy. But unless there was some sleaze element, I wouldn't be surprised if Labour kept their candidate in the race* as a spoiler for Bagge. CCHQ are unlikely to divert anything to Truss even if she was in trouble (which she probably isn't) so there's no reason for Labour to allow Bagge to get rid of her. * Yes, it's an article of faith that Labour has to stand in every mainland constituency. But they could tell the candidate to go to ground or replace him with an outsider with no roots to let Bagge hoover up the opposition votes - neither of which they show any sign of doing. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Apr 17, 2024 11:17:40 GMT
This is the sort of seat where decapitation will probably benefit the Conservatives. Truss going would help any new face wanting to set a new direction. After 1997, the party could rely on the likes of Howard and Clarke being around. Solid characters with gravitas and who commanded respect even amongst people who didn't like them and were glad that the Tories were out. Truss is nowhere near that. Truss does have a coherent liberal vision though. She didn't consistently governing in that style, but the vision is still there - and the Tories tend to lose when they're boasting about how statist they are. The best Tory election performance in recent memory came in 2019 when they put forward a much more statist manifesto. |
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cogload
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Post by cogload on Apr 17, 2024 11:53:26 GMT
Truss isn't a Liberal, big L or small l.
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 17, 2024 12:28:09 GMT
Truss isn't a Liberal, big L or small l. Well, unless she was a Liberal until 1996! |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 12:48:10 GMT
Truss isn't a Liberal, big L or small l. She votes against banning tobacco, so more liberal than the Liberals |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 12:51:10 GMT
Truss does have a coherent liberal vision though. She didn't consistently governing in that style, but the vision is still there - and the Tories tend to lose when they're boasting about how statist they are. The best Tory election performance in recent memory came in 2019 when they put forward a much more statist manifesto. A reasonable point, but that was also against Corbyn who may have repelled swing voters with his cultural baggage and his (well Starmer's) second referendum capers - but who's economic flat earther policies made Boris look like Hayek. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 17, 2024 12:58:30 GMT
Truss isn't a Liberal, big L or small l. She votes against banning tobacco, so more liberal than the Liberals Buying tobacco is being restricted, from a date in the future, to certain people of a particular age. Tobacco isn't being banned. I support this legislation. |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 13:10:47 GMT
She votes against banning tobacco, so more liberal than the Liberals Buying tobacco is being restricted, from a date in the future, to certain people of a particular age. Tobacco isn't being banned. I support this legislation. The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 17, 2024 13:15:56 GMT
Liberalism has cracked up and scattered so widely since its collapse as a coherent political movement a century ago that strong arguments both for and against this policy can be grounded, if one choses, in the liberal tradition.
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Apr 17, 2024 13:29:25 GMT
Liberalism has cracked up and scattered so widely since its collapse as a coherent political movement a century ago that strong arguments both for and against this policy can be grounded, if one choses, in the liberal tradition. It’s interesting how the Liberal Party is the main left wing party in Canada but the main right wing one in Australia |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 17, 2024 13:40:06 GMT
Buying tobacco is being restricted, from a date in the future, to certain people of a particular age. Tobacco isn't being banned. I support this legislation. The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. Liz Truss is no liberal. She's against so much - freedom of speech, freedom of expression, gender identity. Her impression of Marjorie Taylor Greene is embarrassing and desperate. |
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cogload
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Post by cogload on Apr 17, 2024 13:46:07 GMT
Buying tobacco is being restricted, from a date in the future, to certain people of a particular age. Tobacco isn't being banned. I support this legislation. The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. The last paragraph is laughable. The right of the Conservative party is a constant proponent of illiberalism, from championing brexit though to the constant erosion of personal rights and now the not too thinly veiled assault on the rule of law. The modern Conservative party are basically a bunch of hate filled petty autocrats who spend their time despising large sections of society. |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 13:53:01 GMT
The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. Liz Truss is no liberal. She's against so much - freedom of speech, freedom of expression, gender identity. Her impression of Marjorie Taylor Greene is embarrassing and desperate. Criminalising "misgendering" is now liberal? |
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Post by johnloony on Apr 17, 2024 13:55:55 GMT
The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. Liz Truss is no liberal. She's against so much - freedom of speech, freedom of expression, gender identity. Her impression of Marjorie Taylor Greene is embarrassing and desperate. In what way is Liz Truss supposedly against freedom of speech? Or against gender identity? |
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Post by markgoodair on Apr 17, 2024 14:06:17 GMT
Liz Truss is no liberal. She's against so much - freedom of speech, freedom of expression, gender identity. Her impression of Marjorie Taylor Greene is embarrassing and desperate. In what way is Liz Truss supposedly against freedom of speech? Or against gender identity? Anyone who attends an event with Steve Bannon isn't exactly on the side of democracy . |
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right
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Post by right on Apr 17, 2024 14:12:13 GMT
The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. The last paragraph is laughable. The right of the Conservative party is a constant proponent of illiberalism, from championing brexit though to the constant erosion of personal rights and now the not too thinly veiled assault on the rule of law. The modern Conservative party are basically a bunch of hate filled petty autocrats who spend their time despising large sections of society. Nah, the Conservative Party is just people who think that socialism whatever the Labour Party is proposing won't work. Some think it's too fast, some think it shouldn't go any further and others want to reverse it. The reasons are many and varied, and there are certainly a fair few authoritarians of various stripes, but a large chunk are basically economic liberals (and neoliberals and libertarians if we're going to go fine grained) and lately a growing proportion of people who would be called social liberals if the term hadn't been already taken - but who are essentially sceptical of government intervention across the social sphere whether it's about gay relationships or fox hunting. The Conservatives have been stealing Whig clothes since the modern Tories were a thing, but they have systematically canibalised Liberal men and measures since Lloyd George. One of the main functions of the Liberal Democrats in the British system is acting as the gateway drug for left wing voters to become Conservative as they get older and sensible. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 17, 2024 14:26:55 GMT
In what way is Liz Truss supposedly against freedom of speech? Or against gender identity? Anyone who attends an event with Steve Bannon isn't exactly on the side of democracy . Exactly. The combination of standing on the stage with someone who called Tommy Robinson a "hero" and currently making comments against "the health police" in the Commons is all I need to know about her. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Apr 17, 2024 14:30:15 GMT
The question isn't whether you support it, but what the liberal course is Increasing government restriction is clearly illiberal within any dictionary definition People may not like Truss's liberalism, or may doubt the consistency considering her record as Prime Minister, but she does talk the talk far more than the Liberal Democrats. The right of the conservative party is the home of liberalism in its real sense, and has been for half a century. The last paragraph is laughable. The right of the Conservative party is a constant proponent of illiberalism, from championing brexit though to the constant erosion of personal rights and now the not too thinly veiled assault on the rule of law. The modern Conservative party are basically a bunch of hate filled petty autocrats who spend their time despising large sections of society. Truss, Braverman, Badenoch and others will soon be fighting for leadership of a Republican style Party and I hope whoever is pushed out will fight against the takeover as hard as they can |
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Post by matureleft on Apr 17, 2024 14:32:58 GMT
The Conservative party is a coalition. Its ideology is minimal and its purpose is to win and hold power. That doesn't mean that nobody in the party has an ideological backbone but historically the party as a whole has been suspicious of idealists.
The party contains narrow nationalists, authoritarian social conservatives, economic liberals and relative enthusiasts for a big state. Truss has evolved (or seen the shape of the market in the party). She's also trying to both sell a book and keep herself in the activists' mind.
One market space she's identified is that of the victim. It's depressing to see so many people on the right blaming their misfortune on woke or establishment plots. The Conservatives of my youth would never have been such wimps. And they'd have been more competent in designing and delivering their policies
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