Dutch general election, 2023.

[noorderling]

May 30, 2024 17:10:47 GMT noorderling said:

Nerd issue: for the time ever the problem of list exhaustion has cropped up.

PVV had 45 candidates on the list, 37 were elected. Only candidates on the list can act as a replacement.

So Wilders has in theory 8 candidates to spare, but in reality only 6 because 2 are currently members of the Senate.
In the senate the problem is the same: he had 11 names on the list, 4 were elected. But of the list of 11, 5 were elected as MP’s in november. Which leaves 2 spares for the senate, but these 2 are also part of the 6 spares mentioned earlier. If there are no spares to appoint, the seat will remain unfilled.

Wilders is now looking for people to join the government on behalf of the PVV. Two sitting MP’s are mentioned: one of his most experienced who apparently runs the parliamentary party and seems indispensable in a group of MP’s with so little experience. If these two are appointed, he has to use 2 of his remaining 6 spares. The way he has run the party as his private kingdom also means he has not invested in a group available of possible credible appointees. There is a group of former MP’s, but the majority of them left in a huff. One Mp who stepped down at the last election is mentioned: he used to work in the asylum system and was the party’s spokesman on that issue, so could be appointed in that field.

ADDED For context: we have a constitutional ban on combining being a member of parliament and being a member of the government 

Given that Wilders apparently will nominate at least 3 of his current MP’s to become Cabinet members, he will have to use 3 of his spares.

[noorderling]

After all the rhetoric that this government would for about half consist of people from outside the political bubble , remarkable that of 16 proposed members of the government, only 3 are not or never have been MP. Of the remaining 3, 2 have been high ranking civil servants, so also insiders, and only 1 has no known previous political affiliation. He was the boss of the organization of businesses in the catering industry; he left that post some months ago, said he had an interesting new job but refused to divulge what that was, He has also been named as a potential Prime minister. Two of the 4 NSC appointees have only been an MP since November, so could perhaps been seen as outsiders. At least 3 cabinet ministers have roots in CDA, two of the 4 deputy PM’s. One was a member of the committee that was preparing the CDA manifesto, and then left to join BBB. It’s clear she was offered a potential cabinet position, which she never would not have gotten if she had remained, since Rutte fired her from his 3rd government, for publicly criticizing the Covid policy, thus breaking government unity (which is scored pretty sacred).

There are 13 positions outside the cabinet, and they have not all been filled. The names that are known: (former) mps and local politicians. As far as I can see, only one real outsider, a law professor.

The intention was also to recruit members outside the 4 parties in the coalition. NSC has managed to convince one former ChristenUnie MP to become Education secretary (much to the chagrin of that party’s leader). One former VVD Mp will join on behalf of PVV.

The current government has more cabinet members (fewer below cabinet positions) and about half had never been mp before they joined the cabinet. There is a long standing tradition of recruiting a significant proportion of members from the government from outside, sometimes people who only join the party after they’ve been invited to become a minister.

[noorderling]

Correction: there’s a 4th cabinet minister who’s never been MP, she’s member of the coalition that’s currently running one of our provinces. Also a 4th one with CDA roots: he left that party in 2010 because they went into a vorm of coalition with PVV.

[rcronald]

Jun 13, 2024 14:52:31 GMT noorderling said:

Correction: there’s a 4th cabinet minister who’s never been MP, she’s member of the coalition that’s currently running one of our provinces. Also a 4th one with CDA roots: he left that party in 2010 because they went into a vorm of coalition with PVV.

lmao

[noorderling]

The intended Deputy PM and Minister for Asylum and Migration has been withdrawn by Wilders, because he could not get security clearance.

Not surprising: in 2010 he withdrew as a candidate for parliament for the same reason, but he became a senator in 2015 and MP in 2017. He’s long rumored to have an intimate relationship with Mossad. He’s also been caught with an illegal weapon. He is one of the most vile creators imaginable, among other things calling asylum seekers vermin and claiming that 80% of jews in the diaspora are misled in voting for parties that seek their destruction. In 2018 he insulted the rabbi that advised Jews not to vote for Wilders or Le Pen which led to his expulsion, and he claimed that former Deputy PM and D66 leader Kaag liked to surround herself with terrorists. Remarkibly enough he is rumores to have dual Dutch-Israeli citizenship, which is no problem for me, but Wilders has always been vehemently opposed to ministers with dual nationality.

His successor is a current MP and former leader in the senate for PVV, also not the most likeable person. Deputy PM will be one of the first wave PVV MP’s who entered parliament in 2006 and will be Health Secretary. For 18 years she claimed that all problems in the health sector could be easily solved, in the certain knowledge she would never have to solve them herself.

[rcronald]

Jun 13, 2024 17:29:01 GMT noorderling said:

The intended Deputy PM and Minister for Asylum and Migration has been withdrawn by Wilders, because he could not get security clearance.

Not surprising: in 2010 he withdrew as a candidate for parliament for the same reason, but he became a senator in 2015 and MP in 2017. He’s long rumored to have an intimate relationship with Mossad. He’s also been caught with an illegal weapon. He is one of the most vile creators imaginable, among other things calling asylum seekers vermin and claiming that 80% of jews in the diaspora are misled in voting for parties that seek their destruction. In 2018 he insulted the rabbi that advised Jews not to vote for Wilders or Le Pen which led to his expulsion, and he claimed that former Deputy PM and D66 leader Kaag liked to surround herself with terrorists. Remarkibly enough he is rumores to have dual Dutch-Israeli citizenship, which is no problem for me, but Wilders has always been vehemently opposed to ministers with dual nationality.

His successor is a current MP and former leader in the senate for PVV, also not the most likeable person. Deputy PM will be one of the first wave PVV MP’s who entered parliament in 2006 and will be Health Secretary. For 18 years she claimed that all problems in the health sector could be easily solved, in the certain knowledge she would never have to solve them herself.

What’s his name?

Btw, most of what he’s saying sounds like some members of my family when they privately rant… lol

[noorderling]

Jun 13, 2024 17:37:21 GMT rcronald said:

Jun 13, 2024 17:29:01 GMT noorderling said:

The intended Deputy PM and Minister for Asylum and Migration has been withdrawn by Wilders, because he could not get security clearance.

Not surprising: in 2010 he withdrew as a candidate for parliament for the same reason, but he became a senator in 2015 and MP in 2017. He’s long rumored to have an intimate relationship with Mossad. He’s also been caught with an illegal weapon. He is one of the most vile creators imaginable, among other things calling asylum seekers vermin and claiming that 80% of jews in the diaspora are misled in voting for parties that seek their destruction. In 2018 he insulted the rabbi that advised Jews not to vote for Wilders or Le Pen which led to his expulsion, and he claimed that former Deputy PM and D66 leader Kaag liked to surround herself with terrorists. Remarkibly enough he is rumores to have dual Dutch-Israeli citizenship, which is no problem for me, but Wilders has always been vehemently opposed to ministers with dual nationality.

His successor is a current MP and former leader in the senate for PVV, also not the most likeable person. Deputy PM will be one of the first wave PVV MP’s who entered parliament in 2006 and will be Health Secretary. For 18 years she claimed that all problems in the health sector could be easily solved, in the certain knowledge she would never have to solve them herself.

What’s his name?

Btw, most of what he’s saying sounds like some members of my family when they privately rant… lol

Gidi Markuszower

[rcronald]

Jun 13, 2024 17:43:48 GMT noorderling said:

Jun 13, 2024 17:37:21 GMT rcronald said:

What’s his name?

Btw, most of what he’s saying sounds like some members of my family when they privately rant… lol

Gidi Markuszower

I don’t think that he’s some sort of a Mossad agent, but he probably close to the current Likud government, and probably helped the Mossad/Israel as a prominent member of the Jewish community.

He Probably shouldn’t be deputy PM because of his connections, but based on her husband’s connections (and I’m not accusing her or him of anything) Kaag shouldn’t have been appointed as well tbh.

[noorderling]

This is so incredibly predictable and could easily have been avoided The doubts about him were well known. The real surprise was that none of the three other parties (including Omzigt who campaigned on a new political culture) objected to his candidacy (and of course that Wilders was stupid enough to publicly nominate him in the first place.)

Markuszower wil now be damaged and, as they say, it could not happen to a nicer guy. Schadenfreude is not the most attractive of human reactions, but under the circumstances fully justified.

[rcronald]

Jun 13, 2024 17:56:59 GMT noorderling said:

This is so incredibly predictable and could easily have been avoided The doubts about him were well known. The real surprise was that none of the three other parties (including Omzigt who campaigned on a new political culture) objected to his candidacy (and of course that Wilders was stupid enough to publicly nominate him in the first place.)

Markuszower wil now be damaged and, as they say, it could not happen to a nicer guy. Schadenfreude is not the most attractive of human reactions, but under the circumstances fully justified.

Tbf to Omzigt, he campaigned against corrupt politicians, and from what I understand Markuszower has never been accused of corruption. 😅

[noorderling]

Jun 13, 2024 18:04:35 GMT rcronald said:

Jun 13, 2024 17:56:59 GMT noorderling said:

This is so incredibly predictable and could easily have been avoided The doubts about him were well known. The real surprise was that none of the three other parties (including Omzigt who campaigned on a new political culture) objected to his candidacy (and of course that Wilders was stupid enough to publicly nominate him in the first place.)

Markuszower wil now be damaged and, as they say, it could not happen to a nicer guy. Schadenfreude is not the most attractive of human reactions, but under the circumstances fully justified.

Tbf to Omzigt, he campaigned against corrupt politicians, and from what I understand Markuszower has never been accused of corruption. 😅

That was not really what Omzigt is about. His message is multi-faceted, but is essentially 1) to improve the position of parliament opposite the government (right to information, less coalition majority versus opposition minority, which meant that most things were decided behind closed doors by the coalition. This is why he has strongly proposed a limited program now, that leaves a lot of room for alternative majorities on issues the coalition has no agreements on 2) to improve the position of citizens versus the state. One of his big ideas is the introduction of a constitutional court that can judge on the constitutionally of laws. He has a major part in uncovering a scandal; one of the aspects was that the courts had uncritically accepted a law that discriminated against certain groups of citizens, because they felt they could not test the legality of those laws. But he also unofficially presented himself as the squeaky clean politician who would change the way politics works. So every time he does not live up to that image, he will be criticized. Before the election he stated he would not work with Wilders, so every time Wilders does something unacceptable, Omzigt will reminded of his presentation and his words                                                         

[noorderling]

Yesterday Yesilgoz raised doubts about the new PVV candidate for Asylum And Migration. But after a crisis meeting and a tweet by the candidate that she would of course respect the rule of law, Yesolgoz recanted.

A small selection of what we’ve got: someone who during a parliamentary session wore the Prinsenvlag, associated with a fascist movement, someone who during a debate called another MP a PvdA headscarf (even though the MP is from GroenLinks), someone who is a member of an organization supporting settlers in the occupied territories and who left CDA over their cooperation with Wilders in 2010, someone who was sacked by Rutte from his government by not maintaining cabinet unity during the most serious national crisis since WWII (AFAIK the only instance ever of that happening) a consul general for Hungary and ally of Orban.

But also: two very senior civil servants, a former Judge, a former prosecutor, a former high ranking diplomat, a former service man who won the service medal for bravery (that’s only be give 2 or 3 times since WWII).

Slowly the remaining Liberal wing of VVD starts to politely utter some concerns: but too little too late. A representative of that wing is the current minister for Asylum. He has worked his ass to achieve legislation in that field and was very emotional went that passed, against opposition from his own benches. Now he has accepted that this legislation will be thrown out, and will vote for that. He has publicly stated that his does not support this coalition, but out of party loyalty will vote for it. Another striking example: Vd Plas who first defended her plans to tackle the nitrogen crisis as a member of the government, to shortly thereafter as a member of the VVD parliamentary party vote to abolish those plans.

[noorderling]

Today and next week hearing where MP’s can question the nominees. Several parties decided not to participate, and the little I saw convinces me they were probably right. BBB deputy prime minister spent much of her time reviewing not answering the questions, although, to be fair, she did answer the question of her fellow BBB’er about her hobbies.

The new government will be sworn in on July 2nd, and shortly afterwards Tweede Kamer will debate de Regeringsverklaring (“declaration by the government”) stating their intentions. This will be the debut of PM Schoof, and I don’t think he relishes the prospect. He will be heavily questioned by the opposition leaders for hours, on a range of subjects. He won’t get away with imitating the way British PM’s tend to not answer questions they don’t like, because the leaders can ask supplementary questions, and not answering will mean he immediately loses any authority he may have.

This week we save the spectacle of a nominee asking civil servants to check whether he has the Hungarian or Dutch nationality (or both, which would be interesting because he is nominated by Wilders who violently opposes dual nationality), of the First Deputy PM revealed to have been a frequent visitor of a neo-nazi website before she became a MP, and another PVV nominee seems to awarded herself a significant higher wage than the organization where she is a board member (a public broadcasting organization) was allowed to pay her according to their published policy.

When questioned most PVV nominees have chosen this response: I understand that some of my remarks in the past have raised eye brows. But I delivered those remarks as a member of my party, as an opposition MP. Now I am servant of the crown, so I will behave better. None of them have recanted their racist, anti-immigrant, anti Muslim, anti everyone who dares to think differently, rhetoric.

[noorderling]

eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitslagen/item/pvv-verliest-in-nieuwe-zetelpeiling-na-bekendmaking-ministers-groenlinks-pvda-in-de-plus/

Only third of voters has confidence in new government. Even a (small) majority of NSC/VVD supporters has little or no faith in the new team.

[noorderling]

New Dutch government will be sworn in tomorrow (July 2nd). Two day debate in parliament on Wednesday and Thursday. On the second day PM Schoof will make his first speaking appearance as PM. He will be grilled for hours. A daunting prospect for someone with no experience of this kind of debates. Rutte last week claimed he had 500 debates as PM and confessed to significant nerves each time. (Remember he had experience as a government minister and leader of the opposition before he became PM in 2010).

Some allowances will be made for his inexperience, but it will be hard to recover from a poor performance. Another huge problem for him is that he has no formal connections with any of the 4 coalition parties. It’s common practice for ministers etc from the same party to have weekly meetings with the leaders of the parliamentary party: to discuss the line to follow in the weekly cabinet meeting and to find out what’s going on in the other parties. This meant that Rutte was never surprised by potential problems, he was well informed. Schoof does not have this well of information and will have to rely on his deputy PM’s.

There’s a lot more to be said, but I will refrain from doing so in the run-up to Thursday’s GE.

[noorderling]

It did not take long: today the new PM’s first debate and Wilders has already sent a tweet denouncing Schoof for not defending enough two PVV ministers who are accused of being racists.He tweeted Slappe hap (literally ‘tasteless snack), to be translated as weak as …..

The debate has now been suspended since at least 15 minutes, because PVV deputy minister Agema sent a tweet during the debate about the wearing of head scarfs, something that was debated this morning. The PM and his 4 deputies are discussing this elsewhere. The suspension was meant to last 2 minutes, but apparently things are not that easy to smooth over.

[noorderling]

Schoof returned after 30 minutes. He defended his Deputy PM and thus probably lost much of the credit he had.

PVV seems to have made the decision to keep on stirring trouble.

[noorderling]

Reports that behind the scenes DPM Agema was jelling at PM Schoof and about serious doubts by VVD that Wilders wants the coalition to succeed. Yesterday Wilders and Omzigt and today Wilders and Yesligoz at eacht other throats.

Also, mostly debates are pretty low key, with at most some desk banging to underscore a point by the speaker. Yesterday and today were the most rowdy debates I've ever seen, with MP's in the chamber constantly jelling and booing. Probably at House of Commons standards pretty tame, but not something we are used to.

The debate wa meant to end around 2000, but they are only half way the third part of a four part debate. The parliamentary leaders have their second bite of the cherry, and in the fourth round the PM will answer. I expect further fireworks in that fourth round.

[noorderling]

This week saw our King’s Speech and subsequent debate. On the second day, Schoof was on his feet for what must be over 12 hours.

Further cracks in the coalition have emerged over how to proceed with legislation to try and curb asylum. Not on what changes should be made (there is a significant majority in the Tweede Kamer for this and probably also in the Eerste Kamer where the coalition does not have a majority of its own and must rely on support of other right wing parties). But through which legalistive procedure this should be achieved: through crisis legalization (as the coalition has agreed and Wilders desperately wants) or through emergency legalisation.

The difference being that through the first procedure the new rules will apply immediately and parliament will retro-actively discuss them or through the second where parliament will have to agree to them first, but will do this with a much shorter time table than usual. For the first procedure to be applied, certain criteria must be met, and it became clear on Thursday that civil servants have quite straightforwardly advised ministers that this is not the case. So if the government pursues this course, there is a very significant change the measures will not survive a judicial procedure.

In the debate Pieter Omzigt’s deputy (Omzigt himself sits at home with another burnout) was grilled for ninety minutes on how her party could agree to this. In what was quite frankly the most pitiful performance ever in parliament she of course could not. For Wilders and his asylum minister Faber this is a major issue, probably mostly for proving how tough they are. But the cabinet minister responsible for the constitution is a former judge and represents NSC. Given that and the clear advice from her civil servants, she seems unlikely to consent. So, another round of speculation of crisis and acrimony between NSC and the the other three.

[Georg Ebner]

This belongs more into the Politics-thread, but i have read, that the new government intends to distribute the seats in several constituencies (plus national list)?
Which are proposed - just the 12 provinces? Or the 20 electoral districts?