|
Post by noorderling on May 28, 2024 15:46:40 GMT
Dick Schoof just gave his first press conference. Based on his impressive resume, I was minded to think they made a good choice, but I’m not so sure after his first public outing in the job.It’s a big step from civil servant to politician, and even more so to Prime Minister and then in this particular coalition. He was unwilling or unable to answer any of the critical questions asked about possible illegal actions he’s responsible for and was unable to convey to me how he’s gonna be the PM for all citizens, not just the people that support this coalition. As prime ministerial inspiration he named Rutte, an answer that will win him few friends on the left and the right (where Rutte was especially loathed). He reiterated his devotion to the rule of law, but was unable to square that what with a program that purposely and consistently skirts the boundaries of that rule. His past actions seem to suggest that for him the aim justifies the means, which means that the rule of the law is optional, only to be followed when it’s convenient.
Huge caveat with this text: it’s fair to say that I loathe the coalition parties and their program, so I am obviously not objective. That said, his performance today has done nothing to take way any of the objections and fears I have. we’re spared the ego, thinskinnedness and pettiness of Plasterk, but I don’t see him as the man that can return us to a semblance of unity.
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 28, 2024 15:50:20 GMT
Schoof is permanent secretary at the ministery where VVD leader Yesilgoz is in charge politically : she just tweeted (in translation)” Incredibly happy with Dick. “
This is going to raise some eyebrows
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on May 28, 2024 17:25:48 GMT
There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… Are you the conservative liberal, socially indifferent, economically liberal Liberals?
F**k off ! We're the Socially Liberal, socially liberal, economically indifferent Liberals!
LibDems since 2015 😬
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2024 17:32:59 GMT
I suspect that expelling all of the right leaning parties in Renew is likely to end very badly for Renew rather than the right leaning parties… Well, it would need ALDE Party to expell them first and that's highly unlikely to happen. As the Macronists are the hangers on in the Renew grouping, they're effectively irrelevant (and with their likely significant drop in the Euros, even more so). It would take some brass neck for the Macronists to throw them out, given their activities involving migration!
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2024 17:34:54 GMT
Schoof is permanent secretary at the ministery where VVD leader Yesilgoz is in charge politically : she just tweeted (in translation)” Incredibly happy with Dick. “ This is going to raise some eyebrows Raising her eyebrows by the sounds of it!
|
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,512
|
Post by Georg Ebner on May 28, 2024 17:44:11 GMT
I’ve had this conversation before, but I’ve never quite saw what’s particularly liberal about VVD. They’ve always been more of a Conservative party. Even Cameron campaigned for them in 2012 (at the expense of the ChristenUnie who at the time were members of the same grouping in the European Parliament as the Tories.) This term our parliament has a disticintly unliberal majority, that flexed its muscles by throwing out a proposal for a new trans law, before all stages in parliament were completed. The VVD’s new partners are reactionary in their outlook; I’m curious how the VVD will cope with this, and if they will finally show some backbone. There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… Expelling VVD for coalitioning with supposed ilLiberals while keeping ANO would be incredibly funny... Let us not fall too much into American "Science": Those 2 axes are nonSense. (1 mind cannot consist of 2 axes; and there exist many more distinctions: cons. vs. nat., inborn vs. foreign workingClass, civilServants vs. private ecoNomy aso.) Instead we should use in this case simply LeftLiberals, Liberals, RightLiberals.
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on May 28, 2024 17:45:53 GMT
There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… Expelling VVD for coalitioning with supposed ilLiberals while keeping ANO would be incredibly funny... Let us not fall too much into American "Science": Those 2 axes are nonSense. (1 mind cannot consist of 2 axes; and there exist many more distinctions: cons. vs. nat., inborn vs. foreign workingClass, civilServants vs. private ecoNomy aso.) Instead we should use in thus case simply LeftLiberals, Liberals, RightLiberals. I really don’t understand how they ended up in Renew, ANO is essentially a pretty average post-Cold War party of power.
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 28, 2024 18:04:00 GMT
Schoof is permanent secretary at the ministery where VVD leader Yesilgoz is in charge politically : she just tweeted (in translation)” Incredibly happy with Dick. “ This is going to raise some eyebrows Raising her eyebrows by the sounds of it! She’s known for her incredible flexibility. I don’t rate her very high, but must give her this: I Saw some professor on TV who scored the new government program against the 4 election manifestos. The VVD is only party to have a positive score (a point added for a mention of a manifesto promise, subtracted when a promise is not realized), and by a significant margin. So she was an effective negotatiator.
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 29, 2024 5:32:04 GMT
Reaction of the left to the appointment: well at least he’s competent. (He’s apparently super smart).
Reaction at the right: Betrayal, we will never vote for you again etc. As head of the secret service he was responsible for an illegal snooping program. He’s described as someone who likes to push the boundaries, which in this coalition creeps me out even more. I see a huge danger of government overreach, with these 4 authoritarian parties and he’s,certainly up for it.
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on May 29, 2024 6:42:47 GMT
Reaction of the left to the appointment: well at least he’s competent. (He’s apparently super smart). Reaction at the right: Betrayal, we will never vote for you again etc. As head of the secret service he was responsible for an illegal snooping program. He’s described as someone who likes to push the boundaries, which in this coalition creeps me out even more. I see a huge danger of government overreach, with these 4 authoritarian parties and he’s,certainly up for it. Competent+Intelligent+Willing to push boundaries and live in the legal grey seems like a great combination for a right wing reformist coalition. Why is the right upset?
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 29, 2024 6:55:05 GMT
Because he has a PvdA past: he said yesterday that he left the party in 2021 after 30 years because he did not feel at home anymore. Funnily enough Plasterk’s PvdA past was not counted against him.
Because he’s the ultimate insider: a civil servant for over 30 years.
For libertarians: his snooping past.
His technocratic approach, he doesn’t seem like the woke warrior type, the way both Wilders and Plasterk are.
Because: who knows? They are not right wing nutters for nothing.
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on May 29, 2024 10:49:41 GMT
Because he has a PvdA past: he said yesterday that he left the party in 2021 after 30 years because he did not feel at home anymore. Funnily enough Plasterk’s PvdA past was not counted against him. Because he’s the ultimate insider: a civil servant for over 30 years. For libertarians: his snooping past. His technocratic approach, he doesn’t seem like the woke warrior type, the way both Wilders and Plasterk are. Because: who knows? They are not right wing nutters for nothing. I hate how sections of the right are allergic to competence… Regarding him not being a culture warrior, that should be Wilders’ role, not the PM’s…
|
|
aargauer
Conservative
Posts: 5,330
Member is Online
|
Post by aargauer on May 29, 2024 11:13:03 GMT
I’ve had this conversation before, but I’ve never quite saw what’s particularly liberal about VVD. They’ve always been more of a Conservative party. Even Cameron campaigned for them in 2012 (at the expense of the ChristenUnie who at the time were members of the same grouping in the European Parliament as the Tories.) This term our parliament has a disticintly unliberal majority, that flexed its muscles by throwing out a proposal for a new trans law, before all stages in parliament were completed. The VVD’s new partners are reactionary in their outlook; I’m curious how the VVD will cope with this, and if they will finally show some backbone. There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… What is the difference between "socially indifferent" and "socially liberal"? Surely social liberalism is the government having an indifferent position and not enforcing belief systems on the people. Don't really see much liberal about D66 at all. Run of the mill social democratic party. VVD are pretty imperfect too.
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 29, 2024 12:31:27 GMT
Because he has a PvdA past: he said yesterday that he left the party in 2021 after 30 years because he did not feel at home anymore. Funnily enough Plasterk’s PvdA past was not counted against him. Because he’s the ultimate insider: a civil servant for over 30 years. For libertarians: his snooping past. His technocratic approach, he doesn’t seem like the woke warrior type, the way both Wilders and Plasterk are. Because: who knows? They are not right wing nutters for nothing. I hate how sections of the right are allergic to competence… Regarding him not being a culture warrior, that should be Wilders’ role, not the PM’s… ‘Deep State’
|
|
polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by polupolu on May 29, 2024 13:12:32 GMT
There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… What is the difference between "socially indifferent" and "socially liberal"? Surely social liberalism is the government having an indifferent position and not enforcing belief systems on the people. Don't really see much liberal about D66 at all. Run of the mill social democratic party. VVD are pretty imperfect too. D66 is not a Social Democratic party. They are socially liberal and economically centrist. "As a social liberal party, D66 believes that freedom is the most important condition for happiness..." and
"We believe in a government that provides liberty and support to those in need. "
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on May 29, 2024 13:21:20 GMT
There are 3 types of liberal parties in Renew (and in Europe in general): Conservative liberals-Socially indifferent, economically liberal (VVD) Classical Liberal-Socially Liberal, economically liberal (most of the liberal parties in Europe) Social Liberal-Socially liberal, economically indifferent (D66) Edit: Of course Renew also has parties that really have no relation to liberalism and shouldn’t be a part of the group: FF,ANO and more… What is the difference between "socially indifferent" and "socially liberal"? Surely social liberalism is the government having an indifferent position and not enforcing belief systems on the people. Don't really see much liberal about D66 at all. Run of the mill social democratic party. VVD are pretty imperfect too. I just didn’t want to use terms like ‘progressive’ and ‘woke’. Socially indifferent is that you are mostly willing to sacrifice your social program to implement your economic one (pretty much VVD), and economically indifferent is that you are mostly willing to sacrifice your economic program to implement your social one (pretty much D66). I personally view VVD as a classic Bourgeois party, and D66 as a Progressive (or ‘woke’) one.
|
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,512
|
Post by Georg Ebner on May 29, 2024 17:20:54 GMT
To make the currents of liberalism less confusing for some, the term "libertinistic" could be used for "social" (=religion/ethics) lib. just as it is the case with "libertarian" for economical liberalism*.
*To be preciser: economical democratic liberalism - the economical antidemocratc liberalism of the old patricians differed from capitalism.
|
|
|
Post by noorderling on May 30, 2024 8:28:38 GMT
It has been leaked that Schoof was the 4th candidate to be asked. Apparently two other PvdA members were approached, but both refused. The first was Kim Putters, who earlier managed to get the formation back on track. The identity of the second candidate is unknown: the name of Ahmed Aboutaleb, the outgoing mayor of Rotterdam is mentioned. But given Wilders’ stated aversion to dual nationality politicians, that seems to me to be unlikely. Aboutaleb is Dutch-Moroccan.
Other faith divers: for years BBB leader Vander Plas’s being shouting that we should be much tougher in Brussels to get our way on measures that would solve the nitrogen crisis.We should just bang our hands on the table. Yesterday she visited Brussels and spoke to the bureau chief of the commissioner. Of course she achieved nothing, but she was also piping a very different tune, how she of course knew that banging your hands does not work and that it’s important to work on relations. Why she feels it’s productive to do this now, just before a new European Commission will be appointed, probably only she knows. As widely predicted: farmers are going to be mightily disappointed with what BBB can achieve. The delays will only mean even tougher measures.
AFTERTHOUGHT: it slipped my mind that we have European Elections next week, so BBB received a lot of free advertising. The campaign is even more low key than usual; If I had not received my poll card two weeks ago, the fact that we have an election next week might have completely passed me by.
|
|
polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,259
|
Post by polupolu on May 30, 2024 14:19:48 GMT
To make the currents of liberalism less confusing for some, the term "libertinistic" could be used for "social" (=religion/ethics) lib. just as it is the case with "libertarian" for economical liberalism*. *To be preciser: economical democratic liberalism - the economical antidemocratc liberalism of the old patricians differed from capitalism. Libertarianism in the English speaking world is now associated primarily with groups in America that have a rather different ideology. In essence a Liberal believes in individual Freedoms but understands that other people have equivalent Freedoms, so generally a balance needs to be found between conflicting Freedoms. An American Libertarian will tend to believe they have certain absolute rights (e.g. to bear arms) and is less concerned with how these impact the different Freedoms of other people (e.g. to not get shot).
I would stick to the more usual terms "Social Liberal" and "Economic Liberal"; although "Classical Liberal" is sometimes used as a synonym for "Economic Liberal" if you prefer.
|
|
Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,512
|
Post by Georg Ebner on May 30, 2024 14:42:09 GMT
To make the currents of liberalism less confusing for some, the term "libertinistic" could be used for "social" (=religion/ethics) lib. just as it is the case with "libertarian" for economical liberalism*. *To be preciser: economical democratic liberalism - the economical antidemocratc liberalism of the old patricians differed from capitalism. Libertarianism in the English speaking world is now associated primarily with groups in America that have a rather different ideology. In essence a Liberal believes in individual Freedoms but understands that other people have equivalent Freedoms, so generally a balance needs to be found between conflicting Freedoms. An American Libertarian will tend to believe they have certain absolute rights (e.g. to bear arms) and is less concerned with how these impact the different Freedoms of other people (e.g. to not get shot).
I would stick to the more usual terms "Social Liberal" and "Economic Liberal"; although "Classical Liberal" is sometimes used as a synonym for "Economic Liberal" if you prefer.
"To bear arms" was a classical demand of the liberal bourgeoisie versus the privileged aristoCracy. Any "Manchester-liberalism" would surely also be "libertarian" in Your scheme - so the very vast bulk of liberals in the XIXth had to be renamed...
|
|