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Post by Pete Whitehead on Oct 20, 2023 7:07:44 GMT
I think we've established lately that BBC reports have no credibility Well this is exactly what he did do, but I don't think it really matters either way. Are losing candidates expected to make speeches these days?
I wasn't asserting that he didn't, just saying that I would need a more reliable source than the BBC (eg Squarkbox) before giving the story any credence |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 20, 2023 7:16:16 GMT
Well this is exactly what he did do, but I don't think it really matters either way. Are losing candidates expected to make speeches these days?
They should. People worked their arses off for them! I agree, but tradition and courtesy seem to have gone out the window. |
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cogload
Lib Dem
I jumped in the river and what did I see...
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Post by cogload on Oct 20, 2023 7:21:38 GMT
A very good night for the Labour Party. Well done.
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Post by matureleft on Oct 20, 2023 7:23:36 GMT
Well this is exactly what he did do, but I don't think it really matters either way. Are losing candidates expected to make speeches these days?
They should. People worked their arses off for them! Well yes. In a keenly-contested seat I'd expect the main losers to stay around, say something gracious about the winner (presuming nothing appalling had been done in the campaign), and thank their supporters and the staff. However, particularly after a long count many people want to go home and there's often an expectation that remarks should be very short or even left unsaid. I would have thought he'd have been expected to say something. But a losing candidate is seldom the best spokesman for a party and some bitter comments about the national party and its leadership past and present wouldn't add to Tory cheer so I would be surprised if Tory minders didn't 'assist' in his decision. |
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 20, 2023 7:28:51 GMT
They should. People worked their arses off for them! I agree, but tradition and courtesy seem to have gone out the window. On that chav-worded phrase "... people worked their arses off for them ..." is only marginally true. It is not usually that big a commitment for most activists and seldom personal, but tending to the tribal and for the party. Why turn up to a scene of humiliation? Only a few activists will be at any count. The result is all. The speeches are usually mundane to poor, at best. When I knew I had lost I knocked off early and went home for a relaxing bath and then out to a pub with a few friends and supporters for a meal. In a pre-mobile age one could only guess at the timings and I often just stayed on in the pub before going to a club or HQ for a general overview of results. There is no compulsion to be at the count and no need to make a fetish of it. |
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rcronald
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Post by rcronald on Oct 20, 2023 7:30:37 GMT
They should. People worked their arses off for them! Well yes. In a keenly-contested seat I'd expect the main losers to stay around, say something gracious about the winner (presuming nothing appalling had been done in the campaign), and thank their supporters and the staff. However, particularly after a long count many people want to go home and there's often an expectation that remarks should be very short or even left unsaid. I would have thought he'd have been expected to say something. But a losing candidate is seldom the best spokesman for a party and some bitter comments about the national party and its leadership past and present wouldn't add to Tory cheer so I wouldn't be surprised if Tory minders didn't 'assist' in his decision. It’s not a losing candidate’s job to present the national party in a good light in his speech, but it is his job (as far as I’m concerned) to thank his supporters and staff, who spent time and energy helping the candidate. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Oct 20, 2023 7:31:32 GMT
I hope the morons in Westminster don't panic and depose Rishi. That'd be even worse than sticking with him.
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 20, 2023 7:34:16 GMT
I agree, but tradition and courtesy seem to have gone out the window. On that chav-worded phrase "... people worked their arses off for them ..." is only marginally true. It is not usually that big a commitment for most activists and seldom personal, but tending to the tribal and for the party. Why turn up to a scene of humiliation? Only a few activists will be at any count. The result is all. The speeches are usually mundane to poor, at best. When I knew I had lost I knocked off early and went home for a relaxing bath and then out to a pub with a few friends and supporters for a meal. In a pre-mobile age one could only guess at the timings and I often just stayed on in the pub before going to a club or HQ for a general overview of results. There is no compulsion to be at the count and no need to make a fetish of it. There's no obligation for supporters to turn up and as you say, when there is a defeat, not much incentive either. But I think the losing candidate should at least say congratulations and thank the returning officer, his staff and the police.
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batman
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Post by batman on Oct 20, 2023 7:38:58 GMT
A less impressive Labour win than the party achieved at three elections 1997 - 2010. A bit underwhelming really. The Tories polled 41% compared with just 37% in 2005. Compared with 2005 it actually represents a small swing to the Tories! it's the 3rd-largest swing from Conservative to Labour ever in a by-election. Underwhelming is not an appropriate adjective in such a circumstance. Of course it would have been nice for it to have been even larger but it was a very large swing. |
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batman
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Post by batman on Oct 20, 2023 7:43:32 GMT
Turnout reported as 35.9%, 25630 So an exciting and important event that failed to engage two-thirds of the electorate at all! It would be very foolish to take it either seriously or to make any extrapolation from it. extrapolate anything, agreed. Take it seriously, disagree. A by-election swing this size in mid-term can be more easily dismissed or made light of. One of this size almost 4 years into a parliament cannot. This is a disaster for the Tories, although granted Mid Beds is even worse still. It is certainly more than possible that the Tories may be able to recoup this loss in the general election, but given the time-frame it's not a given. |
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 20, 2023 7:45:31 GMT
On that chav-worded phrase "... people worked their arses off for them ..." is only marginally true. It is not usually that big a commitment for most activists and seldom personal, but tending to the tribal and for the party. Why turn up to a scene of humiliation? Only a few activists will be at any count. The result is all. The speeches are usually mundane to poor, at best. When I knew I had lost I knocked off early and went home for a relaxing bath and then out to a pub with a few friends and supporters for a meal. In a pre-mobile age one could only guess at the timings and I often just stayed on in the pub before going to a club or HQ for a general overview of results. There is no compulsion to be at the count and no need to make a fetish of it. There's no obligation for supporters to turn up and as you say, when there is a defeat, not much incentive either. But I think the losing candidate should at least say congratulations and thank the returning officer, his staff and the police.
Why? They are all doing a job for which they are paid. I don't make a speech at the supermarket, the bank or on leaving my hotel after a very pleasant stay. I don't want to congratulate the winner usually. Why would I? Why should I? Most of all this is outmoded weasel-worded insincerity. The police have just had a nice easy day on overtime with damn all to do. The count is usually an ill-run shambles by an incompetent from the local authority who is ill-prepared, underrehearsed and takes forever to count very few votes. The returning officer is often an ill-prepared, ill-spoken mumbler who cocks up some or all of the result announcing. We should thank people for this? Why? |
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batman
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Post by batman on Oct 20, 2023 7:45:59 GMT
Well this is exactly what he did do, but I don't think it really matters either way. Are losing candidates expected to make speeches these days?
I wasn't asserting that he didn't, just saying that I would need a more reliable source than the BBC (eg Squarkbox) before giving the story any credence that's quite a good joke Pete, but it's hard to imagine any so-called journalistic source being less reliable than Skwankbox. Even the BBC are a little more reliable than they are. |
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batman
Labour
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Post by batman on Oct 20, 2023 7:48:29 GMT
There's no obligation for supporters to turn up and as you say, when there is a defeat, not much incentive either. But I think the losing candidate should at least say congratulations and thank the returning officer, his staff and the police.
Why? They are all doing a job for which they are paid. I don't make a speech at the supermarket, the bank or on leaving my hotel after a very pleasant stay. I don't want to congratulate the winner usually. Why would I? Why should I? Most of all this is outmoded weasel-worded insincerity. The police have just had a nice easy day on overtime with damn all to do. The count is usually an ill-run shambles by an incompetent from the local authority who is ill-prepared, underrehearsed and takes forever to count very few votes. The returning officer is often an ill-prepared, ill-spoken mumbler who cocks up some or all of the result announcing. We should thank people for this? Why? thank you, I think that you're wrong and I intend to make a lengthy speech next time I go to the supermarket. |
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 20, 2023 7:51:32 GMT
So an exciting and important event that failed to engage two-thirds of the electorate at all! It would be very foolish to take it either seriously or to make any extrapolation from it. extrapolate anything, agreed. Take it seriously, disagree. A by-election swing this size in mid-term can be more easily dismissed or made light of. One of this size almost 4 years into a parliament cannot. This is a disaster for the Tories, although granted Mid Beds is even worse still. It is certainly more than possible that the Tories may be able to recoup this loss in the general election, but given the time-frame it's not a given. Get excited if you like. We are decades past when the swing really matters at all. The significance here is the collapse of the Conservative vote to 'non-voting'. If there was a genuine groundswell of shift to other parties the TO would have been much higher. This is disengagement and ennui far more than fervour. |
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Post by andrewp on Oct 20, 2023 7:53:16 GMT
The turnout in Tamworth was 36%, in the 1996 by election there it was 62%. I think that’s the one asterisk about all of these Tory disasters, excellent Lib Dem/ Labour gains in this parliament. Turnouts in BEs are a lot lower than they used to be. Unlike in 1997, the by election winner will need to convince new voters come the general election when in previous subsequent general elections, the by election winner has almost always not done as well in the GE. I think the Tories are heading for a very comfortable defeat next year, but I still think it’s pretty likely that they will win almost all of the seats that have had by elections.
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Post by bigfatron on Oct 20, 2023 7:53:39 GMT
Why? They are all doing a job for which they are paid. I don't make a speech at the supermarket, the bank or on leaving my hotel after a very pleasant stay. I don't want to congratulate the winner usually. Why would I? Why should I? Most of all this is outmoded weasel-worded insincerity. The police have just had a nice easy day on overtime with damn all to do. The count is usually an ill-run shambles by an incompetent from the local authority who is ill-prepared, underrehearsed and takes forever to count very few votes. The returning officer is often an ill-prepared, ill-spoken mumbler who cocks up some or all of the result announcing. We should thank people for this? Why? thank you, I think that you're wrong and I intend to make a lengthy speech next time I go to the supermarket. Finding a functioning bank branch is so rare these days that I would consider a public vote of thanks to the staff simply for being there. On an unrelated note, I'm sure carlton43 was bemoaning the lack of courtesy in the modern world a few months ago - has he had a Damascene conversion to the joys of yobbish behaviour?! |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 20, 2023 7:55:47 GMT
There's no obligation for supporters to turn up and as you say, when there is a defeat, not much incentive either. But I think the losing candidate should at least say congratulations and thank the returning officer, his staff and the police.
Why? They are all doing a job for which they are paid. I don't make a speech at the supermarket, the bank or on leaving my hotel after a very pleasant stay. I don't want to congratulate the winner usually. Why would I? Why should I? Most of all this is outmoded weasel-worded insincerity. The police have just had a nice easy day on overtime with damn all to do. The count is usually an ill-run shambles by an incompetent from the local authority who is ill-prepared, underrehearsed and takes forever to count very few votes. The returning officer is often an ill-prepared, ill-spoken mumbler who cocks up some or all of the result announcing. We should thank people for this? Why? "The people have spoken - the bastards. Never liked this area anyway. horrible beer, dreadful people. And Where are the police when you need them usually eh? On some woke training course, I'll be bound. Bloody counting staff - all very well when you're on double time, oh yes! You'd do this from home if you could.And to the press i say, piss off and get a proper job" (sticks tongue out, makes rude gesture with fingers)
"Oh, there's been a mistake? I actually won? Let me start again."
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 20, 2023 7:57:42 GMT
Why? They are all doing a job for which they are paid. I don't make a speech at the supermarket, the bank or on leaving my hotel after a very pleasant stay. I don't want to congratulate the winner usually. Why would I? Why should I? Most of all this is outmoded weasel-worded insincerity. The police have just had a nice easy day on overtime with damn all to do. The count is usually an ill-run shambles by an incompetent from the local authority who is ill-prepared, underrehearsed and takes forever to count very few votes. The returning officer is often an ill-prepared, ill-spoken mumbler who cocks up some or all of the result announcing. We should thank people for this? Why? thank you, I think that you're wrong and I intend to make a lengthy speech next time I go to the supermarket. "Friends, Romans, Countrymen! Lend me your Tesco clubcard!" |
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 20, 2023 8:03:58 GMT
thank you, I think that you're wrong and I intend to make a lengthy speech next time I go to the supermarket. Finding a functioning bank branch is so rare these days that I would consider a public vote of thanks to the staff simply for being there. On an unrelated note, I'm sure carlton43 was bemoaning the lack of courtesy in the modern world a few months ago - has he had a Damascene conversion to the joys of yobbish behaviour?! Yes. I do like politeness and courtesy. But these old spanish electoral customs are silly and often pointless, just as are the incessant maundering in football over the death of anyone at all associated with the club and obsessive wearing of black armbands. Most of it is totally insincere posturing and grandstanding and very cloying sentimentality. |
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Post by carlton43 on Oct 20, 2023 8:06:34 GMT
A less impressive Labour win than the party achieved at three elections 1997 - 2010. A bit underwhelming really. The Tories polled 41% compared with just 37% in 2005. Compared with 2005 it actually represents a small swing to the Tories! it's the 3rd-largest swing from Conservative to Labour ever in a by-election. Underwhelming is not an appropriate adjective in such a circumstance. Of course it would have been nice for it to have been even larger but it was a very large swing. But, so what? We are in different febrile times and the old rules have no purchase. On that TO it is not fervour and frankly not very significant at all. |
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