batman
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Post by batman on Jun 9, 2023 21:28:24 GMT
I don't get this at all. Labour are a clear second in both seats and it would make their credentials as a government in waiting much stronger to win both. I think labour will win both, but both will go back (keeping in mind new Uxbridge is more tory than the old) at the GE. that's arguable, the boundary changes only have a very small partisan effect in this seat, and some say none at all. |
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Post by pericles on Jun 9, 2023 21:28:38 GMT
If Boris was up by 17 points like Tory Twitter believed, why would he resign? Another humiliation for the clowns.
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batman
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Post by batman on Jun 9, 2023 21:30:34 GMT
You do recall that he was the Prime Minister, don't you? He was the political elite. No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. This isn't some sort of Trumpian comment either. I accept he did wrong, I accept he's guilty and I accept he must be punished. However, I am not naive enough not to recognise the motivations of those who went for him. The Harriet Harman's, the Sue Grey's etc. They aren't impartial paragons blindly delivering justice, they have their prejudices. Let's be the intelligent adults we are and accept that. no, they just aren't. The political elite are not the people who dominate think tanks or cultural organisations. Utter nonsense. The people who own & run things are the political elite. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jun 9, 2023 21:32:10 GMT
If Boris was up by 17 points like Tory Twitter believed, why would he resign? Another humiliation for the clowns. Boris can't be humiliated as he has no humility or morality whatsoever. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Jun 9, 2023 21:32:33 GMT
Boris Johnson didn't need to resign. If he was convinced of his innocence and a stick up by the Westminster he could have taken his case back to his constituents and let them decide. Even if a majority of his constituents did support him, it is still absolutely certain that the recall threshold would have been reached. |
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Post by woollyliberal on Jun 9, 2023 21:36:28 GMT
Labour is quite a bit higher in the polls than at the time of North Shropshire at the end of 2021. Had that by election taken place 6 - 12 months later the party would have been a more serious contender there. 43% now vs 39% then. The Lib Dems are averaging 11% now vs 9% then. For completeness, the Tories were on 36% then and 29% now. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jun 9, 2023 21:36:48 GMT
No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. This isn't some sort of Trumpian comment either. I accept he did wrong, I accept he's guilty and I accept he must be punished. However, I am not naive enough not to recognise the motivations of those who went for him. The Harriet Harman's, the Sue Grey's etc. They aren't impartial paragons blindly delivering justice, they have their prejudices. Let's be the intelligent adults we are and accept that. no, they just aren't. The political elite are not the people who dominate think tanks or cultural organisations. Utter nonsense. The people who own & run things are the political elite. Arent they just the plain old elite rather than the political elite? I know a couple people who Id describe as genuine elites (Inc one hedge fund owner) who feel very politically disenfranchised. |
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Post by manchesterman on Jun 9, 2023 21:37:01 GMT
No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. This isn't some sort of Trumpian comment either. I accept he did wrong, I accept he's guilty and I accept he must be punished. However, I am not naive enough not to recognise the motivations of those who went for him. The Harriet Harman's, the Sue Grey's etc. They aren't impartial paragons blindly delivering justice, they have their prejudices. Let's be the intelligent adults we are and accept that. no, they just aren't. The political elite are not the people who dominate think tanks or cultural organisations. Utter nonsense. The people who own & run things are the political elite. Quoted to like again... and again...and again
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 9, 2023 21:46:16 GMT
Surely Labour would be better focusing on Rutherglen and Uxbridge rather than running three simultaneous campaigns and risking winning none of them? If they can't run three by-elections at the same time with total verve and competence and a large input of ground forces, material and organizational effort, how on earth will they be able to run the country? Why should we trust them to do so? |
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Post by matureleft on Jun 9, 2023 21:48:06 GMT
You do recall that he was the Prime Minister, don't you? He was the political elite. No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. This isn't some sort of Trumpian comment either. I accept he did wrong, I accept he's guilty and I accept he must be punished. However, I am not naive enough not to recognise the motivations of those who went for him. The Harriet Harman's, the Sue Grey's etc. They aren't impartial paragons blindly delivering justice, they have their prejudices. Let's be the intelligent adults we are and accept that. Where did this elite go to school and university? Is Johnson “socially conservative” in any recognisable sense? Indeed, other than on Brexit (on which his personal views are obscured by his intra-party tactical choices) Johnson would appear pretty typical of the “liberal metropolitan elite”. Then turning to those who “went for him”, were they not his own exasperated colleagues? Harman’s opinions were irrelevant even within the committee she chaired - it has a clear Tory majority. And Sue Gray’s report was more directed against the civil service culture that had been allowed to develop in No. 10 and left him out of the critique. It is interesting that we have both Trump and Johnson playing the victim card in parallel. But many will believe them, I concede. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jun 9, 2023 21:53:26 GMT
matureleft - I don't think anyone believes Boris, his supporters just don't care. Perhaps controversial- but i don't believe one's schooling and university make one "elite" or not - they just make it easier for people to bluff.
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Post by johnloony on Jun 9, 2023 21:55:56 GMT
I predict
Labour 52%
Conservative 35%
Reform, LD, Green all about 4 each
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batman
Labour
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Post by batman on Jun 9, 2023 21:58:02 GMT
quite a decent prediction, is my initial reaction John
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jun 9, 2023 21:58:28 GMT
Boris Johnson didn't need to resign. If he was convinced of his innocence and a stick up by the Westminster he could have taken his case back to his constituents and let them decide. It would require working. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 9, 2023 22:20:10 GMT
No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. This isn't some sort of Trumpian comment either. I accept he did wrong, I accept he's guilty and I accept he must be punished. However, I am not naive enough not to recognise the motivations of those who went for him. The Harriet Harman's, the Sue Grey's etc. They aren't impartial paragons blindly delivering justice, they have their prejudices. Let's be the intelligent adults we are and accept that. Where did this elite go to school and university? Is Johnson “socially conservative” in any recognisable sense? Indeed, other than on Brexit (on which his personal views are obscured by his intra-party tactical choices) Johnson would appear pretty typical of the “liberal metropolitan elite”. Then turning to those who “went for him”, were they not his own exasperated colleagues? Harman’s opinions were irrelevant even within the committee she chaired - it has a clear Tory majority. And Sue Gray’s report was more directed against the civil service culture that had been allowed to develop in No. 10 and left him out of the critique. It is interesting that we have both Trump and Johnson playing the victim card in parallel. But many will believe them, I concede. I did not say Johnson was socially conservative, he isn't. Indeed, I readily concede he is instinctively in the same mould as those I criticise. However, that's not what he made himself politically. For, as I said, his own self interested reasons, he put himself at the forefront of a socially conservative and predominantly northern focused campaign against the economic and socially liberal consensus. This strain of thinking that dominates what I call 'the oligarchy', i.e. the main political parties, institutions, politically and culturally adjacent organisations, the BBC etc. It's the consensus that insists, for instance, on the policy to allow hundreds of thousands of immigrants per annum to immigrate here. This is done for two reasons for each of the two main parties; to suppress wages and keep labour costs low, hence Conservative support, and ideological reasons around internationalisation, which is why the left-wing of your party supports it. This is done in deliberate defiance of the public will. Indeed, you personally were part of a government that pioneered this, and whose policy had such profoundly negative consequences as a result. For the living standards of working class communities, the collapse in faith in politics and for the brief rise of the unapologetically fascist BNP. I fear you will do it again, and this time we won't be so lucky as to have a Farage figure to come along and attract people to a more moderate message. Moreover, the people who went for him were Conservative MPs, most of whom never wanted him in the first place, the so-called 'blob' and the opposition desperate to get rid of a vote winner whom they despised for the aforementioned political reasons. Indeed, we can see that with Sue Gray being appointed by the Labour Party so soon after the damning report. That stinks to high heaven, and you know it does. We all do. I am also not Trumpian, I dispute that characterisation. Being socially conservative is not an illegitimate position to take, despite attempts to make it so. I have also, unlike the tangerine clown and his travelling circus, already repeatedly accepted his guilt and I believe that lying to Parliament is a serious offence that should result in dismissal from Parliament. A parliamentary system like ours, which despite being flawed is the best system, cannot work properly if it has people lying to it, but neither will it survive long term with the anti-democratic soft authoritarianism we've seen since 1997 and which we see on display again tonight. |
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Post by willpower3 on Jun 9, 2023 22:22:32 GMT
The most charismatic Tory politician in the post-Cold War era. They'll be desperate to have him back in the leadership after several years in opposition.
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Jun 9, 2023 22:25:21 GMT
The most charismatic Tory politician in the post-Cold War era. They'll be desperate to have him back in the leadership after several years in opposition. That's the problem isn't it. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 9, 2023 22:32:09 GMT
You do recall that he was the Prime Minister, don't you? He was the political elite. No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. Christ, bitter moaning about Them Southerners is exactly the kind of shit that holds the entire North of England back. |
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 9, 2023 22:49:36 GMT
No. The political elite are those that dominate parliament, those that dominate the political institutions, most of the think tanks, the cultural organisations, the big businesses, the BBC and so on. Those are all of one overarching political trend; namely Southern dominated social and economic liberalism. Boris went against that, for his own self interested reasons I accept, and led a sucessful socially conservative, anti-Southern and anti-corporate agenda that specifically appealed to people that those I mentioned look down upon. That's why Boris is hated by them and it is why, when he gave them the opportunity, they took their chance and have elimated any chance of a return. Christ, bitter moaning about Them Southerners is exactly the kind of shit that holds the entire North of England back. Or perhaps it's a natural symptom of a political system that concentrates power and investment in the south. That has led to real and tangible problems for the north, Wales and parts of Scotland. It's also why we see the rise in political apathy, and a part of the reason for the rise in separatist sentiment in the latter two. It isn't bitter to point that out and want to rectify it. Changing attitudes outwith the south, mainly the south east, towards the south will do nothing if there isn't a concomitant change in public policy. This is why 'leveling up' has such traction, it's badly needed and I am disappointed it has come to nought. |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 9, 2023 22:52:01 GMT
The most charismatic Tory politician in the post-Cold War era. They'll be desperate to have him back in the leadership after several years in opposition. Which “They” do you mean? The Labour government? |
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