Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 11:54:41 GMT
Speculate to accumulate. It’s Lib Dem bar charts I hate.
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,798
Member is Online
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Post by Tony Otim on Sept 20, 2023 12:04:41 GMT
don't forget the Greens, they occasionally get involved in this kind of stuff too. Though probably less than the others. Oh, I think we've probably produced our fair share of nonsense too.
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,380
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Sept 20, 2023 12:06:59 GMT
Speculate to accumulate. It’s Lib Dem bar charts I hate. Can you live with pie charts?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 12:22:15 GMT
Speculate to accumulate. It’s Lib Dem bar charts I hate. Can you live with pie charts? They can bin those too. 🔶➡️🗑️.
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ricmk
Lib Dem
Posts: 2,573
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Post by ricmk on Sept 20, 2023 12:26:29 GMT
Main argument for changing the voting system: take awful bar charts out of politics. Vote-clincher if you ask me.
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,380
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Sept 20, 2023 12:44:23 GMT
Main argument for changing the voting system: take awful bar charts out of politics. Vote-clincher if you ask me. Is that all ya got?
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Roger Harmer
Lib Dem
Councillor for Acocks Green in Birmingham
Posts: 245
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Post by Roger Harmer on Sept 20, 2023 12:56:43 GMT
Let's not bring fascism into it; I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Lib Dem leaflets with fascism. Fascism imprisons, tortures and kills people for their beliefs, or sometimes their disbility, ethnicity or religion. It is however a disgraceful leaflet, the sort of thing I have sadly come to expect with fair regularity. Why is it so hard for them just to say Vote for us, because X or Y policy or proposal is better than what the other parties are proposing? This should certainly be added to the (excellent idea of a) FAC list, but the simple and fairly obvious answer to your final point is because we have a first past the post electoral system. If you like first past the post I'm afraid you have to accept that what goes with it is parties putting a lot of effort into saying they are in first (or second) place and trying to squeeze everyone else. All parties do it (when I first won my Council Seat from Labour, the Tory candidate's final leaflet was all about why he was best placed to beat Labour not me). If you don't like it (in part because it makes parties do this to win) then vote for a party in favour of electoral reform. Supporting FPP and whinging about parties saying its a two horse race between x party and y party is hypocritical.
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Post by batman on Sept 20, 2023 12:59:44 GMT
Let's not bring fascism into it; I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Lib Dem leaflets with fascism. Fascism imprisons, tortures and kills people for their beliefs, or sometimes their disbility, ethnicity or religion. It is however a disgraceful leaflet, the sort of thing I have sadly come to expect with fair regularity. Why is it so hard for them just to say Vote for us, because X or Y policy or proposal is better than what the other parties are proposing? I was referring to all parties that behave in this way. It shows that their commitment to the democratic process is far from genuine. my point still stands. I strongly prefer that fascism is not so airily cited. Few people have a greater contempt for the Liberal Democrats as a party than I do, but for me it's a step too far to bring fascism into it. Fascism is a great deal more than contempt for the democratic process, although such contempt is indeed an important component of fascism.
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Post by batman on Sept 20, 2023 13:04:31 GMT
e and trying to squeeze everyone else. All parties do it (when I first won my Council Seat from Labour, the Tory candidate's final leaflet was all about why he was best placed to beaLet's not bring fascism into it; I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Lib Dem leaflets with fascism. Fascism imprisons, tortures and kills people for their beliefs, or sometimes their disbility, ethnicity or religion. It is however a disgraceful leaflet, the sort of thing I have sadly come to expect with fair regularity. Why is it so hard for them just to say Vote for us, because X or Y policy or proposal is better than what the other parties are proposing?This should certainly be added to the (excellent idea of a) FAC list, but the simple and fairly obvious answer to your final point is because we have a first past the post electoral system. If you like first past the post I'm afraid you have to accept that what goes with it is parties putting a lot of effort into saying they are in first (or second) plact Labour not me). If you don't like it (in part because it makes parties do this to win) then vote for a party in favour of electoral reform. Supporting FPP and whinging about parties saying its a two horse race between x party and y party is hypocritical. my views on FPTP have nothing to do with it. I am objecting to misleading leaflets, leaflets deliberately designed to mislead voters. The arguments for or against FPTP are actually very nuanced and complex and I utterly, totally, vehemently oppose the notion that if I fail to endorse PR wholeheartedly I lose the right to criticise deliberately misleading statements. As it happens, I am much more accepting of PR than I once was, but frankly I don't see that as any concern of yours whatsoever. I am outraged by the premise behind your comment and it is this kind of view that makes me reluctant to go the whole hog and declare myself an unequivocal supporter of electoral reform.
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Roger Harmer
Lib Dem
Councillor for Acocks Green in Birmingham
Posts: 245
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Post by Roger Harmer on Sept 20, 2023 13:09:22 GMT
e and trying to squeeze everyone else. All parties do it (when I first won my Council Seat from Labour, the Tory candidate's final leaflet was all about why he was best placed to beaLet's not bring fascism into it; I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Lib Dem leaflets with fascism. Fascism imprisons, tortures and kills people for their beliefs, or sometimes their disbility, ethnicity or religion. It is however a disgraceful leaflet, the sort of thing I have sadly come to expect with fair regularity. Why is it so hard for them just to say Vote for us, because X or Y policy or proposal is better than what the other parties are proposing?This should certainly be added to the (excellent idea of a) FAC list, but the simple and fairly obvious answer to your final point is because we have a first past the post electoral system. If you like first past the post I'm afraid you have to accept that what goes with it is parties putting a lot of effort into saying they are in first (or second) plact Labour not me). If you don't like it (in part because it makes parties do this to win) then vote for a party in favour of electoral reform. Supporting FPP and whinging about parties saying its a two horse race between x party and y party is hypocritical. my views on FPTP have nothing to do with it. I am objecting to misleading leaflets, leaflets deliberately designed to mislead voters. The arguments for or against FPTP are actually very nuanced and complex and I utterly, totally, vehemently oppose the notion that if I fail to endorse PR wholeheartedly I lose the right to criticise deliberately misleading statements. As it happens, I am much more accepting of PR than I once was, but frankly I don't see that as any concern of yours whatsoever. I am outraged by the premise behind your comment and it is this kind of view that makes me reluctant to go the whole hog and declare myself an unequivocal supporter of electoral reform. I didn't say it was anything to do with your views on FPTP, I said it happens because of FPTP.
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 20, 2023 13:27:16 GMT
Let's not bring fascism into it; I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Lib Dem leaflets with fascism. Fascism imprisons, tortures and kills people for their beliefs, or sometimes their disbility, ethnicity or religion. It is however a disgraceful leaflet, the sort of thing I have sadly come to expect with fair regularity. Why is it so hard for them just to say Vote for us, because X or Y policy or proposal is better than what the other parties are proposing? This should certainly be added to the (excellent idea of a) FAC list, but the simple and fairly obvious answer to your final point is because we have a first past the post electoral system. If you like first past the post I'm afraid you have to accept that what goes with it is parties putting a lot of effort into saying they are in first (or second) place and trying to squeeze everyone else. All parties do it (when I first won my Council Seat from Labour, the Tory candidate's final leaflet was all about why he was best placed to beat Labour not me). If you don't like it (in part because it makes parties do this to win) then vote for a party in favour of electoral reform. Supporting FPP and whinging about parties saying its a two horse race between x party and y party is hypocritical. There is zero hypocrisy involved in both being in favour of FPTP and adamantly opposed to blatant lying about the detail in bar charts.
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Roger Harmer
Lib Dem
Councillor for Acocks Green in Birmingham
Posts: 245
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Post by Roger Harmer on Sept 20, 2023 13:33:08 GMT
This should certainly be added to the (excellent idea of a) FAC list, but the simple and fairly obvious answer to your final point is because we have a first past the post electoral system. If you like first past the post I'm afraid you have to accept that what goes with it is parties putting a lot of effort into saying they are in first (or second) place and trying to squeeze everyone else. All parties do it (when I first won my Council Seat from Labour, the Tory candidate's final leaflet was all about why he was best placed to beat Labour not me). If you don't like it (in part because it makes parties do this to win) then vote for a party in favour of electoral reform. Supporting FPP and whinging about parties saying its a two horse race between x party and y party is hypocritical. There is zero hypocrisy involved in both being in favour of FPTP and adamantly opposed to blatant lying about the detail in bar charts. I didn't say there was. I said it is hypocritical to support FPTP and complain that parties put time and effort into convincing the electorate that they are first or second. The question asked upthread was why parties do this and I was answering that question.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Sept 20, 2023 13:34:11 GMT
don't forget the Greens, they occasionally get involved in this kind of stuff too. Though probably less than the others. Oh, I think we've probably produced our fair share of nonsense too. I'm very fond of this one, which I continue to believe was actually an attempt at producing avant-garde conceptual art:
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Post by batman on Sept 20, 2023 13:38:06 GMT
my views on FPTP have nothing to do with it. I am objecting to misleading leaflets, leaflets deliberately designed to mislead voters. The arguments for or against FPTP are actually very nuanced and complex and I utterly, totally, vehemently oppose the notion that if I fail to endorse PR wholeheartedly I lose the right to criticise deliberately misleading statements. As it happens, I am much more accepting of PR than I once was, but frankly I don't see that as any concern of yours whatsoever. I am outraged by the premise behind your comment and it is this kind of view that makes me reluctant to go the whole hog and declare myself an unequivocal supporter of electoral reform. I didn't say it was anything to do with your views on FPTP, I said it happens because of FPTP. "it happens" does it? No, it doesn't just "happen". People don't tell blatant lies just because of what electoral system we do or don't have. Because that's what the leaflet in question is - it is a pack of lies. Nor is lying confined exclusively to your party. I will not tolerate deliberate untruths told by any political party including my own.
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Roger Harmer
Lib Dem
Councillor for Acocks Green in Birmingham
Posts: 245
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Post by Roger Harmer on Sept 20, 2023 13:46:43 GMT
I didn't say it was anything to do with your views on FPTP, I said it happens because of FPTP. "it happens" does it? No, it doesn't just "happen". People don't tell blatant lies just because of what electoral system we do or don't have. Because that's what the leaflet in question is - it is a pack of lies. Nor is lying confined exclusively to your party. I will not tolerate deliberate untruths told by any political party including my own. I'll try one more time. I'm not talking about lying or saying lying is OK, I'm saying that the reason parties focus their efforts on arguing that they are first or second in an upcoming election derives from FPTP.
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graham
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,299
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Post by graham on Sept 20, 2023 14:48:02 GMT
"it happens" does it? No, it doesn't just "happen". People don't tell blatant lies just because of what electoral system we do or don't have. Because that's what the leaflet in question is - it is a pack of lies. Nor is lying confined exclusively to your party. I will not tolerate deliberate untruths told by any political party including my own. I'll try one more time. I'm not talking about lying or saying lying is OK, I'm saying that the reason parties focus their efforts on arguing that they are first or second in an upcoming election derives from FPTP. But any party which argues that it is in first or second place when it knows full well that the assertion is not true is deliberately seeking to mislead voters - ie it is lying! I have long been a supporter of the AV system as used in Australia but I am not persuaded that it would eliminate the false claims made by party campaigners. Whilst it would facilitate the transfer of votes until one candidate has gained 50% of votes cast, there would be much the same focus to avoid being perceived as being in 3rd or 4th place that we now see under FPTP.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 20, 2023 14:59:30 GMT
I'll try one more time. I'm not talking about lying or saying lying is OK, I'm saying that the reason parties focus their efforts on arguing that they are first or second in an upcoming election derives from FPTP. But any party which argues that it is in first or second place when it knows full well that the assertion is not true is deliberately seeking to mislead voters - ie it is lying! I have long been a supporter of the AV system as used in Australia but I am not persuaded that it would eliminate the false claims made by party campaigners. Whilst it would facilitate the transfer of votes until one candidate has gained 50% of votes cast, there would be much the same focus to avoid being perceived as being in 3rd or 4th place that we now see under FPTP.
The Lib Dems have pulled these kind of arguments in D'Hondt elections to the European Parliament as well. The Greens also famously played the 'only we can stop the BNP winning a seat in the NW' card..
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 20, 2023 15:13:18 GMT
There is no "Electoral Administration (Truthful Use of Statistics) (Leaflets etc) Regulations".
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Post by stb12 on Sept 20, 2023 15:14:17 GMT
But any party which argues that it is in first or second place when it knows full well that the assertion is not true is deliberately seeking to mislead voters - ie it is lying! I have long been a supporter of the AV system as used in Australia but I am not persuaded that it would eliminate the false claims made by party campaigners. Whilst it would facilitate the transfer of votes until one candidate has gained 50% of votes cast, there would be much the same focus to avoid being perceived as being in 3rd or 4th place that we now see under FPTP.
The Lib Dems have pulled these kind of arguments in D'Hondt elections to the European Parliament as well. The Greens also famously played the 'only we can stop the BNP winning a seat in the NW' card.. IIRC the SNP tried similar about UKIP winning a Scotland seat in the 2014 euro elections
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Roger Harmer
Lib Dem
Councillor for Acocks Green in Birmingham
Posts: 245
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Post by Roger Harmer on Sept 20, 2023 16:07:55 GMT
I'll try one more time. I'm not talking about lying or saying lying is OK, I'm saying that the reason parties focus their efforts on arguing that they are first or second in an upcoming election derives from FPTP. But any party which argues that it is in first or second place when it knows full well that the assertion is not true is deliberately seeking to mislead voters - ie it is lying! I have long been a supporter of the AV system as used in Australia but I am not persuaded that it would eliminate the false claims made by party campaigners. Whilst it would facilitate the transfer of votes until one candidate has gained 50% of votes cast, there would be much the same focus to avoid being perceived as being in 3rd or 4th place that we now see under FPTP.
Yes I'd agree with those comments about AV and its one reason why I'd prefer a proportional system.
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