iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 11,435 
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Post by iain on Jul 23, 2023 19:08:34 GMT
The combined right is currently on 155 seats (175 needed), but Spain has a pretty heavy left wing counting bias.
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Post by observer on Jul 23, 2023 19:16:02 GMT
Even by the standards are the European populist right, Vox are a pretty unpleasant bunch (from my point of view obviously). They combine their boilerplate anti immigrant / LGBT agenda with other elements from the religious right and defence of Francoism. What defence of Franco have you seen? In the real world, not in your head. Vox's manifesto is the most economically liberal of all Spain's parties. You do realise that that is the opposite of Franco's corporatism? |
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Post by markgoodair on Jul 23, 2023 19:19:40 GMT
They were described to me by a Catalan barmaid that works in Horbury as out and out fascists that hate women and gay people . Really a nasty bunch . Perhaps she believes everything she believes in the rotten media. According to large parts of the media people who disagree with official narrative on immigration, coronavirus, global warming etc etc etc are 'far right'. I live in Spain and the TV news channels here pump it out literally every 5-10 seconds She is Catalan and proud of it. She also lost her Grandfather in the Civil War fighting against Franco. |
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Post by observer on Jul 23, 2023 19:24:14 GMT
Perhaps she believes everything she believes in the rotten media. According to large parts of the media people who disagree with official narrative on immigration, coronavirus, global warming etc etc etc are 'far right'. I live in Spain and the TV news channels here pump it out literally every 5-10 seconds She is Catalan and proud of it. She also lost her Grandfather in the Civil War fighting against Franco. Will that make her immune from falling for BS? Does it mean that whatever she says is like tablets from the mountain? |
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Post by swanarcadian on Jul 23, 2023 19:24:54 GMT
I also wouldn't place much store on her anaylsis of UK politics posted on the VoteSpain forum, when her assesments of UK political parties are what she was told by some dickhead who drinks in the pub she works in. The VoteSpain forum, eh? Sounds interesting. |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,824
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jul 23, 2023 19:25:07 GMT
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Post by AdminSTB on Jul 23, 2023 19:27:41 GMT
I'm not quite sure what Foggy means by "tried to shaft the Rock" but this details their attitude to Gibraltar. It mentions that party activists unfurled a huge Spanish flag on the rock, but unhelpfully does not provide a date for this. June 2016. I remember it happening. |
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Post by observer on Jul 23, 2023 19:32:30 GMT
If the story told in George's graphs is correct I reckon the 'right' will get about 170-178 seats
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,267
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Post by WJ on Jul 23, 2023 19:35:56 GMT
27% of the vote in and the PSOE are holding up better than expected, even accounting for the fact that there's a left bias earlier in the count in Spain.
PSOE 133 +13 32.76%
PP 128 +39 30.22%
Vox 32 -20 11.96%
Sumar 29 -6 11.49%
ERC 7 -6 1.89%
Junts 7 -1 1.62%
EH Bildu 6 +1 3.02%
EAJ-PNV 5 -1 2.82%
BNG 1 0 0.61%
UPN 1 +1 0.24%
CCa 1 -1 0.01%
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Jul 23, 2023 19:47:52 GMT
I don't want to start a discussion of the Civil War but as, I've said before, it's important to note that despite UK media coverage, the removal of statues of Franco (the last one was in Melilla), the attempts by the outgoing government to create a DNA database of the dead, the business about the Valley of the Fallen, the view of barmaids in Horbury and so on, that Spain is far from united in opposition to the memory of Franco. This isn't like modern Germany where almost no one is a public supporter of the memory of Hitler. There are whole swathes of Spain and a chunk of the population, even younger people, who are either ambivalent or supportive in some way. If you read, eg, Paul Preston's stuff you get a one sided view. The Pacto del Olvido is still an important thing in Spain (indeed it is the basis for the Amnesty Law of 1977) and we should remember that.
On that note, I've just started re-reading The Face of Spain. The Spanish Labyrinth will follow. I recommend both.
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Post by observer on Jul 23, 2023 19:52:15 GMT
Spaniards' understanding of their own history and that of other countries is pitiful.
The pact of olvido accounts for that
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 23, 2023 20:02:01 GMT
I think Vox would be right up your street carlton43 . They're deeply sceptical of regionalism and want a more centralised state. They're highly socially conservative, having very little truck with social liberalism. They were described to me by a Catalan barmaid that works in Horbury as out and out fascists that hate women and gay people . Really a nasty bunch . So, one impeccable source, from the highest echelons of society, known for her erudition and intimate knowledge of politics and current affairs! 'Nuff said! Discussion over. |
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,267
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Post by WJ on Jul 23, 2023 20:05:16 GMT
62% counted and things are not looking good for the right block. The PP are finally ahead, but unless something changes drastically, they don't have even close to the numbers they need- Even if they manage to tempt a regionalist or two to the cause (itself a near impossibility).
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 23, 2023 20:06:12 GMT
I don't want to start a discussion of the Civil War but as, I've said before, it's important to note that despite UK media coverage, the removal of statues of Franco (the last one was in Melilla), the attempts by the outgoing government to create a DNA database of the dead, the business about the Valley of the Fallen, the view of barmaids in Horbury and so on, that Spain is far from united in opposition to the memory of Franco. This isn't like modern Germany where almost no one is a public supporter of the memory of Hitler. There are whole swathes of Spain and a chunk of the population, even younger people, who are either ambivalent or supportive in some way. If you read, eg, Paul Preston's stuff you get a one sided view. The Pacto del Olvido is still an important thing in Spain (indeed it is the basis for the Amnesty Law of 1977) and we should remember that. On that note, I've just started re-reading The Face of Spain. The Spanish Labyrinth will follow. I recommend both. Any country that has had a civil war is very unlikely to ever be united in its views of that war or its participants.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 23, 2023 20:15:19 GMT
Even by the standards are the European populist right, Vox are a pretty unpleasant bunch (from my point of view obviously). They combine their boilerplate anti immigrant / LGBT agenda with other elements from the religious right and defence of Francoism. Good stuff. I like what I'm hearing. We need one here. We might have to drop the Franco bit to avoid confusing the plebs. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,773
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Post by andrea on Jul 23, 2023 20:20:07 GMT
72% counted
PP 131 seats
PSOE 128
VOX 33
SUMAR 30
Catalonia Republicans 7
Together for Catalonia 7
Basque left Nationalists 6
Basque centrist Nationalists 5
Canarian Nationalists 1
Galician left Nationalists 1
Navarre centrist regionalists 1
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,773
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Post by andrea on Jul 23, 2023 20:27:35 GMT
80% counted
PP 132 seats
PSOE 125
VOX 33
SUMAR 31
Catalonia Republicans 7
Together for Catalonia 7
Basque left Nationalists 6
Basque centrist Nationalists 5
Canarian Centrist Nationalists 1
Canarian Leftish Nationalists 1
Galician left Nationalists 1
Navarre centrist regionalists 1
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edgbaston
Labour
Posts: 4,379
Member is Online
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Post by edgbaston on Jul 23, 2023 20:28:04 GMT
Looks like a disaster of a night for Catalan separatists. I wish we could be shot of our own SNP in the same way, here’s hoping.
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WJ
Non-Aligned
Posts: 3,267
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Post by WJ on Jul 23, 2023 20:36:16 GMT
Looks like a disaster of a night for Catalan separatists. I wish we could be shot of our own SNP in the same way, here’s hoping. Important to note that this isn't necessarily due to a collapse in support for separatism, rather that many separatists are boycotting national elections. |
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Post by markgoodair on Jul 23, 2023 20:38:06 GMT
Even by the standards are the European populist right, Vox are a pretty unpleasant bunch (from my point of view obviously). They combine their boilerplate anti immigrant / LGBT agenda with other elements from the religious right and defence of Francoism. Good stuff. I like what I'm hearing. We need one here. We might have to drop the Franco bit to avoid confusing the plebs. Clearly the Spanish people don't agree with your assessment of their needs as Vox are getting a real drumming n this election. |
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