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Post by london(ex)tory on Jun 15, 2022 12:48:30 GMT
Me and my partner are in France this week, we arrived at our house in the early hours of Monday morning to find 3 NUPES leaflets, one from Ensemble / Horizons and one from Union Centristes et Ecologistes. This morning we got one through the door from RN. Nothing from Les Republicains and we won’t now as they failed to get through to the runoff.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Jun 15, 2022 14:13:07 GMT
So why the 'but' in your original post? Because it is an interesting fact that there was a Chief Minister in the 16th century who had a first name which is usually a woman’s name. For example, it wouldn’t have been interesting if I had written “France has had two woman prime ministers, but it also used to have a prime minister called Lionel Something”. The fact that I already knew that Anne Somebody was a man was already obvious, because I described Edith Cresson and Elisabeth Borne as the first and second women prime ministers, rather than the second and third (quite apart from the fact that he was obviously a man because of the portrait and the information on the Wikipedia page. Therefore, logically, you should not be asking me why I wrote “but”. You should be asking andrea why he told me that Anne Somebody was a man, even though I already knew. What you actually said was: Which strongly infers that you are differentiating between the post of Prime Minister, and the post of Chief Minister, and further implies that you thought that the Chief Minister in question may have been a woman. It was not obvious, in any way, that you knew that Anne de Montmorency was a man. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,780 
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Post by john07 on Jun 15, 2022 15:36:02 GMT
Anne de Montmorency was a man. Montmorency was a dog. I am not sure that Charlie Drake would agree. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,005
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Post by Khunanup on Jun 15, 2022 17:15:44 GMT
Two most recent announcements on withdrawals NUPES pull candidate to avoid RN victory while a LREM candidate refuses to withdraw and the presidential majority pull their support from his candidacy What party is the NUPES candidate from out of interest in L-et-G 2? |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 15, 2022 17:26:21 GMT
Two most recent announcements on withdrawals NUPES pull candidate to avoid RN victory while a LREM candidate refuses to withdraw and the presidential majority pull their support from his candidacy What party is the NUPES candidate from out of interest in L-et-G 2? ps |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 15, 2022 22:04:27 GMT
…Which strongly infers that you are differentiating between the post of Prime Minister, and the post of Chief Minister, and further implies that you thought that the Chief Minister in question may have been a woman. It was not obvious, in any way, that you knew that Anne de Montmorency was a man. The Wikipedia page has a list of government leaders in France going back to the 16th century, and in that context it doesn’t particularly matter whether you call them “prime minister” or “chief minister” or whatever. There is nothing in what I wrote to indicate or to imply (or even to “infer”) that there is any particular distinction between the two titles. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in anything that I wrote to imply in any way that I thought, or suspected, or might have thought, that Anne Somebody was, or might have been, a woman. That is for the overwhelmingly and flagrantly obvious reasons that (1) he was a Chief Minister in the 16th century, when all such government officials in European countries were always men universally and without exception (2) right next to the name is a portrait of him, showing a man with a beard. Thus it was indeed obvious - not just overwhelmingly so, but totally so, and in every conceivable or imaginable way, that I knew, and that it was obvious to everybody, that Anne Somebody was a man. The whole point that I was making in the first place was that I merely found it interesting to discover the obscure minor historical fact that there was such a government official who had a name which is usually considered to be a woman’s name. In doing so, I naturally assumed that other people would also find this fact interesting as a curiosity. The only reason why I went to the Wikipedia page in the first place was because I wanted to check who the current and recent French prime ministers were; I only happened to notice the curious fact about Anne Somebody because he is at the top of the list as the first entry. If I had thought that people were going to become frantically and absurdly deranged about the whole subject, then I might not have bothered even mentioning it. I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition. |
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Jun 16, 2022 10:50:00 GMT
…Which strongly infers that you are differentiating between the post of Prime Minister, and the post of Chief Minister, and further implies that you thought that the Chief Minister in question may have been a woman. It was not obvious, in any way, that you knew that Anne de Montmorency was a man. The Wikipedia page has a list of government leaders in France going back to the 16th century, and in that context it doesn’t particularly matter whether you call them “prime minister” or “chief minister” or whatever. There is nothing in what I wrote to indicate or to imply (or even to “infer”) that there is any particular distinction between the two titles. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in anything that I wrote to imply in any way that I thought, or suspected, or might have thought, that Anne Somebody was, or might have been, a woman. That is for the overwhelmingly and flagrantly obvious reasons that (1) he was a Chief Minister in the 16th century, when all such government officials in European countries were always men universally and without exception (2) right next to the name is a portrait of him, showing a man with a beard. Thus it was indeed obvious - not just overwhelmingly so, but totally so, and in every conceivable or imaginable way, that I knew, and that it was obvious to everybody, that Anne Somebody was a man. The whole point that I was making in the first place was that I merely found it interesting to discover the obscure minor historical fact that there was such a government official who had a name which is usually considered to be a woman’s name. In doing so, I naturally assumed that other people would also find this fact interesting as a curiosity. The only reason why I went to the Wikipedia page in the first place was because I wanted to check who the current and recent French prime ministers were; I only happened to notice the curious fact about Anne Somebody because he is at the top of the list as the first entry. If I had thought that people were going to become frantically and absurdly deranged about the whole subject, then I might not have bothered even mentioning it. I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition. You seem completely to have missed Turgot, an economic theorist who was Louis XVI's chief minister from 1774 to 1776 and whose full name was Anne Robert Jacques Turgot. Anne actually seems to have been quite a common French first name for people of both sexes right up until the French Revolution, since which time the French seem to have used it only as a female first name. But it looks as if it has also been (and may still be) more common as a male than a female name in the Netherlands. |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2022 11:36:53 GMT
You seem completely to have missed Turgot, an economic theorist who was Louis XVI's chief minister from 1774 to 1776 and whose full name was Anne Robert Jacques Turgot. Anne actually seems to have been quite a common French first name for people of both sexes right up until the French Revolution, since which time the French seem to have used it only as a female first name. But it looks as if it has also been (and may still be) more common as a male than a female name in the Netherlands. I missed him because he is hiding in the middle of the list, and because that Wikipedia page didn’t tell us that his first name is Anne. If I had known in advance that I was going to be interrogated in great detail by literally trillions of pedants, I might have clicked on every single name in the whole list individually, just to check all their middle names and dates of birth, just in case somebody was going to quiz me about it two days later. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jun 16, 2022 11:39:49 GMT
Minor controversy in 4ème of Paris. Sarkozy has turned up to meet the Macronista candidate, but not the LR candidate Brigitte Kuster...one of his longest-serving loyalists, who is understandably upset. Dati and Barnier have however turned up to support her.
What is Sarko playing at? Or is this yet more evidence of LREM just becoming a catch-all middle-class party/personality cult?
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2022 11:56:01 GMT
I haven’t been following the micro-Details of French politics in the last few years as much as I would have done perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, so I went to Wikipedia to check exactly what “NUPES” is. I was amused to discover that it includes:
Generation.s which aims to “refound and gather the left” and supports eco-socialism;
Ensemble! which Ensemble!, which is anti-capitalist, anti-racist, feminist and eco-socialist;
La France Insoumise, which is democratic socialist, populist and eco-socialist;
as well as the Socialist Party and the Communist Party.
If all these eclectic and eccentric lefties had stuck with continuing to vote for, and be involved in, the Socialist Party like they were 30 or 40 years ago, they might have achieved more of their objectives in the first place, instead of splitting all over the place and being slow to co-operate again.
It might have helped if France had adopted FPTP from 1958 instead of having its silly two-round system.
The silly two-round system is only possible because they don’t even use proper ballot papers like proper countries do.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 16, 2022 12:10:02 GMT
I haven’t been following the micro-Details of French politics in the last few years as much as I would have done perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, so I went to Wikipedia to check exactly what “NUPES” is. I was amused to discover that it includes: Generation.s which aims to “refound and gather the left” and supports eco-socialism; Ensemble! which Ensemble!, which is anti-capitalist, anti-racist, feminist and eco-socialist; La France Insoumise, which is democratic socialist, populist and eco-socialist; as well as the Socialist Party and the Communist Party. If all these eclectic and eccentric lefties had stuck with continuing to vote for, and be involved in, the Socialist Party like they were 30 or 40 years ago, they might have achieved more of their objectives in the first place, instead of splitting all over the place and being slow to co-operate again. It might have helped if France had adopted FPTP from 1958 instead of having its silly two-round system. The silly two-round system is only possible because they don’t even use proper ballot papers like proper countries do. if the left is known for doing anything it's splitting and hating each other more than they hate the opposition. Sadly not only true of France. Currently watching the Unison conference unfold in dispair. They clearly took one look at unity and thought not for us |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 16, 2022 12:13:09 GMT
I haven’t been following the micro-Details of French politics in the last few years as much as I would have done perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, so I went to Wikipedia to check exactly what “NUPES” is. I was amused to discover that it includes: Generation.s which aims to “refound and gather the left” and supports eco-socialism; Ensemble! which Ensemble!, which is anti-capitalist, anti-racist, feminist and eco-socialist; La France Insoumise, which is democratic socialist, populist and eco-socialist; as well as the Socialist Party and the Communist Party. If all these eclectic and eccentric lefties had stuck with continuing to vote for, and be involved in, the Socialist Party like they were 30 or 40 years ago, they might have achieved more of their objectives in the first place, instead of splitting all over the place and being slow to co-operate again. It might have helped if France had adopted FPTP from 1958 instead of having its silly two-round system. The silly two-round system is only possible because they don’t even use proper ballot papers like proper countries do. if the left is known for doing anything it's splitting and hating each other more than they hate the opposition. Sadly not only true of France. Currently watching the Unison conference unfold in dispair. They clearly took one look at unity and thought not for us Maybe Unison will split into NUPES and NALGOS |
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 16, 2022 12:24:52 GMT
if the left is known for doing anything it's splitting and hating each other more than they hate the opposition. Sadly not only true of France. Currently watching the Unison conference unfold in dispair. They clearly took one look at unity and thought not for us Maybe Unison will split into NUPES and NALGOS Would they still have a COHSE relationship? |
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Post by observer on Jun 16, 2022 12:28:10 GMT
Maybe Unison will split into NUPES and NALGOS Would they still have a COHSE relationship? SODIT |
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Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2022 12:32:02 GMT
I haven’t been following the micro-Details of French politics in the last few years as much as I would have done perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, so I went to Wikipedia to check exactly what “NUPES” is. I was amused to discover that it includes: Generation.s which aims to “refound and gather the left” and supports eco-socialism; Ensemble! which Ensemble!, which is anti-capitalist, anti-racist, feminist and eco-socialist; La France Insoumise, which is democratic socialist, populist and eco-socialist; as well as the Socialist Party and the Communist Party. If all these eclectic and eccentric lefties had stuck with continuing to vote for, and be involved in, the Socialist Party like they were 30 or 40 years ago, they might have achieved more of their objectives in the first place, instead of splitting all over the place and being slow to co-operate again. It might have helped if France had adopted FPTP from 1958 instead of having its silly two-round system. The silly two-round system is only possible because they don’t even use proper ballot papers like proper countries do. if the left is known for doing anything it's splitting and hating each other more than they hate the opposition. Sadly not only true of France. Currently watching the Unison conference unfold in dispair. They clearly took one look at unity and thought not for us Strange use of the word “sadly” |
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,096
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Post by ilerda on Jun 16, 2022 12:42:22 GMT
It's interesting that so many parties that claim to be established in order to 'unite the left' end up having to become just one part of another coalition.
The same thing happens a lot in Spain where the PCE is part of Izquierda Unida which is party of Unidas Podemos which is part of Sumar.
Mas Pais split from Podemos (which had been founded to unify the left) in order to unify the left, and has now ended up joining an electoral coalition with Podemos in regional elections in Andalucia in order to unite the left.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 16, 2022 13:01:06 GMT
It's interesting that so many parties that claim to be established in order to 'unite the left' end up having to become just one part of another coalition. The same thing happens a lot in Spain where the PCE is part of Izquierda Unida which is party of Unidas Podemos which is part of Sumar. Mas Pais split from Podemos (which had been founded to unify the left) in order to unify the left, and has now ended up joining an electoral coalition with Podemos in regional elections in Andalucia in order to unite the left. losing seats has a way of focusing the mind |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 16, 2022 13:02:04 GMT
Maybe Unison will split into NUPES and NALGOS Would they still have a COHSE relationship? I've got a COHSE badge at home |
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Post by mattbewilson on Jun 16, 2022 13:03:04 GMT
if the left is known for doing anything it's splitting and hating each other more than they hate the opposition. Sadly not only true of France. Currently watching the Unison conference unfold in dispair. They clearly took one look at unity and thought not for us Maybe Unison will split into NUPES and NALGOS many happy summers spent at Nalgos holiday resort in Devon |
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 16, 2022 13:04:06 GMT
Would they still have a COHSE relationship? I've got a COHSE badge at home Don't say it too loud or everyone will want one.  |
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