neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Oct 15, 2021 18:14:57 GMT
A welcome addition to the Ordinariate. Does this come at financial cost in terms of CofE pension? Why would it? No other pensions come with conditions beyond staying alive. Not true, there are pensions you forfeit under certain circumstances. |
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Post by greyfriar on Oct 15, 2021 19:37:43 GMT
A welcome addition to the Ordinariate. Does this come at financial cost in terms of CofE pension? Why would it? No other pensions come with conditions beyond staying alive. It’s my lack of knowledge of CofE employment status - vaguely recall a tribunal a few years back whereupon the defence was that clergy were not employees and as far as I’m aware Catholics are more supported financially than officially pensioned, so would have a fair bit of conditionality applied. |
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 15, 2021 20:12:35 GMT
Why would it? No other pensions come with conditions beyond staying alive. It’s my lack of knowledge of CofE employment status - vaguely recall a tribunal a few years back whereupon the defence was that clergy were not employees and as far as I’m aware Catholics are more supported financially than officially pensioned, so would have a fair bit of conditionality applied. I could ask around (my Dad's pretty much the expert on CofE finances, and my uncle is a recently retired Anglican archdeacon), but it seems extremely unlikely that there's any condition in the pension contract around still being licensed to officiate at services, or continuing to attend a CofE church if you're physically able. And those are pretty much the only things that could make clergy any different from other professions. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Oct 15, 2021 21:07:25 GMT
It’s my lack of knowledge of CofE employment status - vaguely recall a tribunal a few years back whereupon the defence was that clergy were not employees and as far as I’m aware Catholics are more supported financially than officially pensioned, so would have a fair bit of conditionality applied. I could ask around (my Dad's pretty much the expert on CofE finances, and my uncle is a recently retired Anglican archdeacon), but it seems extremely unlikely that there's any condition in the pension contract around still being licensed to officiate at services, or continuing to attend a CofE church if you're physically able. And those are pretty much the only things that could make clergy any different from other professions. Treason, perhaps, given the CofE's relationship with the crown. |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 15, 2021 21:35:24 GMT
I could ask around (my Dad's pretty much the expert on CofE finances, and my uncle is a recently retired Anglican archdeacon), but it seems extremely unlikely that there's any condition in the pension contract around still being licensed to officiate at services, or continuing to attend a CofE church if you're physically able. And those are pretty much the only things that could make clergy any different from other professions. Treason, perhaps, given the CofE's relationship with the crown. Does going over to the Bishop of Rome constitute treason?  |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 15, 2021 21:38:17 GMT
Treason, perhaps, given the CofE's relationship with the crown. Does going over to the Bishop of Rome constitute treason? Depends on your view of the Apostolic succession. |
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iang
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,814
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Post by iang on Oct 16, 2021 6:51:49 GMT
It's a bit odd, as I remember him very much as an evangelical
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 16, 2021 7:01:05 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so.
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 16, 2021 7:30:33 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so. Defections between denominations (in all directions) are incredibly common at the lay level, I know several people who have moved to a CofE church in the last couple of years (in one case, they were thinking about seeking ordination). I don't know about people who were ordained in their existing denomination, though. In many protestant denominations ordination isn't something you keep if you aren't actually serving as a church leader, which obviously makes defection a lot less likely. |
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Post by greyfriar on Oct 16, 2021 8:52:36 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so. At the lay level the barriers to access are clearly lower and pull factors can be good local parishes, whether at a liturgical or social level. For clerics it’s a different consideration altogether and a theologically rare proposition for someone to pitch for Anglican communion over evangelicals or Catholicism at the different ends of the spectrum. Much of this is down to the question of what the modern CofE actually stands for, after decades of liberalising stances on divorce, women priests, bishops and lately same sex relationships. The independent or loosely aligned evangelicals do fairly well at pitching a mixture of vibrant worship, inviting social environment and varying degrees of doctrinal firmness. For those of a more Anglo-Catholic outlook, the apostolic succession and more conservative positions on aspects which have liberalised within Anglicanism makes a logical case for crossing the Tiber. The common thread at a high level being, why accept a poor imitation of the real thing. In political terms the CofE is standing in the middle of the road and lacking direction, so a more difficult ask for those seeking party membership or office than itinerant voters. It has considerable infrastructure from which to launch a resurgence, albeit remains to be determined whether that will be a platform to do so or a millstone. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Oct 16, 2021 9:52:28 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so. Defections between denominations (in all directions) are incredibly common at the lay level, I know several people who have moved to a CofE church in the last couple of years (in one case, they were thinking about seeking ordination). I don't know about people who were ordained in their existing denomination, though. In many protestant denominations ordination isn't something you keep if you aren't actually serving as a church leader, which obviously makes defection a lot less likely. One of my previous vicars in Epsom was a Roman Catholic priest who discovered women and switched. |
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on Oct 16, 2021 10:41:39 GMT
I never formally defected to the CofE from my non conformist upbringing- I just started going to an Anglican church which happened to have a very intelligent and interesting rector whose sermons I enjoyed , and discovered I also found a lot of satisfaction in the traditional ritual. To be honest I also found I was more comfortable there as effectively an agnostic who would like to have faith but rarely felt I did, than somewhere where that seemed to be more of a problem. I’ve more or less stopped going as my local church no longer offers the same comfort, , with a congregation far more enthusiastic about belief,( feeling more like chapel in my youth but without the good singing) and has pretty much discarded the elements which attracted me. I still , when away, often look to see if there is a church nearby which appears to offer traditional services ( BCP especially), and do try to attend cathedral services when I have the opportunity.
If the Anglican Church were a business any analyst brought in to advise on how to increase its membership would pull their hair out at their determination to eschew any of their advantages and pursue policies and practices which seem designed to amplify decline. The progress of secularism seems unstoppable ( other than perhaps among immigrant non Christian communities). At one time a kind of traditional Anglicanism seemed somehow , however anomalously, to offer a place to those who felt scepticism regarding much of the central tenets of faith , but who nevertheless loved much which was captured in the Church’s ritual and traditions, respected those who held deeper faith, and shared the ethical values which, through the Church have underpinned most of what is good in our society.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Oct 16, 2021 14:32:41 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so. Defections between denominations (in all directions) are incredibly common at the lay level, I know several people who have moved to a CofE church in the last couple of years (in one case, they were thinking about seeking ordination). I don't know about people who were ordained in their existing denomination, though. In many protestant denominations ordination isn't something you keep if you aren't actually serving as a church leader, which obviously makes defection a lot less likely. The CofE has loads of ordained people who are in secular roles. I know someone who told me he'd taken his details out of Crockfords to stop vicar-less parishes pestering him! |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 16, 2021 17:59:59 GMT
Has anyone recently defected to the Church of England? Recently being the last 50 years or so. The priest who takes most of our services would be a case in point. His earler career was as a headmaster of the local grammar school ( and so the headmaster for both our sons) and combined that with being a Methodist lay preacher. On retirement from school he joined the CoE and was ordained as a priest. I think there are quite a lot of former Methodist and some ex Baptists in the local Anglican clergy, If you are thinking ordinary church members rather than ordinands, then I look no further than my other half. Eileen in early days was a Strict Baptist. By the time I first knew her, in the 1950s, she was a mainstream Baptist and regularly preaching in Baptist chapels. She had been through the full baptism thing. We were married (in 1961) in the Congregational church before it became United Reformed, and that was where we worshipped for the first two years of our marriage - that was a compromise between her Baptist origins and my Anglicanism and we were also strongly influenced by the great man himself Clifford Hill ( who had actually been the man who married us and by far the best known Congregationalist of his generation). Then when we moved to Kent the local CoE was much more conveniently located and Eileen eventually not only went through an Anglican confirmation by Geoffrey Fisher, and in due course of time heard Clifford Hill preach in Canterbury Cathedral- a major occasion for the Cathedral . Eileen by then was not only taking Anglican services but was the sole lay person appointed to the Canterbury commission on liturgy. She remains an Anglican - I had always said with her direction of travel she was bound to finish up with Rome, but it never happened. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Oct 16, 2021 18:10:41 GMT
Treason, perhaps, given the CofE's relationship with the crown. Does going over to the Bishop of Rome constitute treason? That would be an ecumenical matter |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 16, 2021 22:13:37 GMT
Does going over to the Bishop of Rome constitute treason? That would be an ecumenical matter Not 'arf. |
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 17, 2021 10:05:29 GMT
Thanks for the replies to my query. I know very little about Christian denominations.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,011
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 17, 2021 14:25:38 GMT
It's a bit odd, as I remember him very much as an evangelical See my post above. It's essentially a conversion without converting with the caveat that he really, really doesn't like women being in positions of spiritual authority within the hierarchy of the CoE. |
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Post by timrollpickering on May 21, 2024 18:01:09 GMT
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Post by greenhert on May 21, 2024 18:21:32 GMT
What is the difference between the Nordic Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church? Also, Scandinavia has a pretty low proportion of Catholics.
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