Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 4, 2021 12:19:53 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop They are effectively non-territorial - hence the term "flying bishops". They provide the role of bishop to churches who will not accept the ministry of women. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 4, 2021 12:21:56 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I heard the Bishop of Stratford International say something very similar. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 4, 2021 12:28:49 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I heard the Bishop of Stratford International say something very similar. The Archiepiscopate of Didcot Parkway is highly esteemed, I hear. |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 4, 2021 12:45:18 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I heard the Bishop of Stratford International say something very similar. Was he railing against the evils of modern society? |
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peterl
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Post by peterl on Sept 4, 2021 12:53:24 GMT
The CofE has far too many churches, many of which stagger on for years with congregations of 20-30 people. How is the system organised? Territory divided in parish and nothing more? How large are parishes on average? Does it vary significantly between areas? Have there been attempts to put together parishes? Can more churches depend from a single parish? Quite common for several churches to have a team ministry with one or two priests handling several church buildings and alternating services, especially in rural areas. The problem is partly that many buildings are old, listed and therefore difficult to close as the building will be harder to sell, and partially that differences in worship styles mean that churches are not interchangable - close an Anglo-Catholic parish and the congregation will not be happy to go to the evangelical parish down the road. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 4, 2021 13:06:50 GMT
How is the system organised? Territory divided in parish and nothing more? How large are parishes on average? Does it vary significantly between areas? Have there been attempts to put together parishes? Can more churches depend from a single parish? Quite common for several churches to have a team ministry with one or two priests handling several church buildings and alternating services, especially in rural areas. The problem is partly that many buildings are old, listed and therefore difficult to close as the building will be harder to sell, and partially that differences in worship styles mean that churches are not interchangable - close an Anglo-Catholic parish and the congregation will not be happy to go to the evangelical parish down the road. Also, small congregations are often very reluctant to close. Locally, we have four Anglican churches in two benefices, though one is now little more than a school chapel. The vicar of one of them has the freehold which means he has a job for life. They wanted him to be Team Rector to all four churches. He advised them to pay a voluntary visit to a taxidermist. Two of the churches are the same churchmanship but they hate each other so refuse to merge even though one of them meets in a room in the church hall as the church was found to be riddled with asbestos. The fourth church is anglo-Catholic but they ended up with a vicar who isn't. None of them have a regular congregation of much over 30. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Sept 4, 2021 13:08:05 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop Parishes that refuse bishops who ordinated women as priests have a flying bishop. There is currently 3 (Ebbsfleet for the west of the Province of Canterbury, Richborough for the east of the Province of Canterbury, and Beverley for the province of York). London has a special arrangement where they use a suffagan bishop for that (currently the Bishop of Fulham). There is another flying bishop, Maidstone, for congregations with a conservative view on men leading the household (and Conservative Evangelicals in general). |
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 4, 2021 13:12:18 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop It's a suffragan bishop with a nominal see to title a flying bishop rather than an area bishop and the post was specifically created to handle parishes opposed to ordinating women. The Bishop of Richborough was created the following year for the same reason and has also seen one incumbent resign to convert to Roman Catholicism. I suppose they wanted places in the Diocese of Canterbury (east Kent) that were not otherwise in use and neither of these is exactly a bustling metropolis. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 4, 2021 13:15:52 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I heard the Bishop of Stratford International say something very similar. Wrong Ebbsfleet - this is the hamlet near Ramsgate (i.e. in the Diocese of Canterbury). |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 4, 2021 13:18:48 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop Parishes that refuse bishops who ordinated women as priests have a flying bishop. There is currently 3 (Ebbsfleet for the west of the Province of Canterbury, Richborough for the east of the Province of Canterbury, and Beverley for the province of York). London has a special arrangement where they use a suffagan bishop for that (currently the Bishop of Fulham). There is another flying bishop, Maidstone, for congregations with a conservative view on men leading the household (and Conservative Evangelicals in general). Only it's quite opaque as to exactly how many parishes the evangelical Bishop looks after. It's not stated anywhere, even on the website. A number have passed one of the resolutions relating to women priests but nothing more, and still remain under their territorial Bishop as it's more likely that their primary relationships will be with other evangelical churches not the CofE in any case. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Sept 4, 2021 13:18:49 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I believe that the suffragan bishopric is named for Ebbsfleet, Thanet rather than the rather odd new place. No idea whether that's for an historical reason, like there was a minster or large abbey there years ago. |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Sept 4, 2021 13:35:06 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop I believe that the suffragan bishopric is named for Ebbsfleet, Thanet rather than the rather odd new place. No idea whether that's for an historical reason, like there was a minster or large abbey there years ago. Richborough and Ebbsfleet (which are next to each other) is the supposed place where St. Augustine landed to convert England, according to Wikipedia. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Sept 4, 2021 13:41:08 GMT
Ebbsfleet is a very strange place to have a bishop It's a suffragan bishop with a nominal see to title a flying bishop rather than an area bishop and the post was specifically created to handle parishes opposed to ordinating women. The Bishop of Richborough was created the following year for the same reason and has also seen one incumbent resign to convert to Roman Catholicism. I suppose they wanted places in the Diocese of Canterbury (east Kent) that were not otherwise in use and neither of these is exactly a bustling metropolis. Although I think the flying bishops are on an archdiocesan basis, with Richborough looking after one half of the province and Ebbsfleet the other half. Which apparently has caused some annoyance in the dioceses of Truro and Exeter who wanted a flying bishop named after somewhere over there. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Sept 4, 2021 13:41:47 GMT
I believe that the suffragan bishopric is named for Ebbsfleet, Thanet rather than the rather odd new place. No idea whether that's for an historical reason, like there was a minster or large abbey there years ago. Richborough and Ebbsfleet (which are next to each other) is the supposed place where St. Augustine landed to convert England, according to Wikipedia. Every day is a school day! I didn't know that. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 4, 2021 13:54:03 GMT
It's a suffragan bishop with a nominal see to title a flying bishop rather than an area bishop and the post was specifically created to handle parishes opposed to ordinating women. The Bishop of Richborough was created the following year for the same reason and has also seen one incumbent resign to convert to Roman Catholicism. I suppose they wanted places in the Diocese of Canterbury (east Kent) that were not otherwise in use and neither of these is exactly a bustling metropolis. Although I think the flying bishops are on an archdiocesan basis, with Richborough looking after one half of the province and Ebbsfleet the other half. Which apparently has caused some annoyance in the dioceses of Truro and Exeter who wanted a flying bishop named after somewhere over there. I think that's because they had quite a lot of anti-WP anglo-Catholic parishes there. Generally in RC areas the Church of England is low, whereas in areas with a lot of nonconformity it's often High. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Sept 4, 2021 14:19:01 GMT
Although I think the flying bishops are on an archdiocesan basis, with Richborough looking after one half of the province and Ebbsfleet the other half. Which apparently has caused some annoyance in the dioceses of Truro and Exeter who wanted a flying bishop named after somewhere over there. I think that's because they had quite a lot of anti-WP anglo-Catholic parishes there. Generally in RC areas the Church of England is low, whereas in areas with a lot of nonconformity it's often High. Market forces: come to us for an alternative. I wonder if it's especially low in places that were hotbeds of recusancy. EDIT: typo |
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on Sept 4, 2021 14:37:16 GMT
I think that's because they had quite a lot of anti-WP anglo-Catholic parishes there. Generally in RC areas the Church of England is low, whereas in areas with a lot of nonconformity it's often High. Market forces: come to us for an alternative. I wonder if it's especially in low in places that were hotbeds of recusancy. Not sure, to be honest. My Lancashire ancestors were recusants and, after the lessening of the penal laws, the Catholic community became visibly dominant in those areas. As a way to appeal, local Anglican churches often became Anglo-Catholic; similarly,in urban areas, though for different reasons, where the high proportion of Irish, Italian, Poles settled, the local C of E parishes are often High Church/Anglo-Catholic. This is often to do with the strong tradition of Anglo-Catholic clergy working among the poorest communities. Both RC and C of E populations were living in poor conditions in the cities. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 4, 2021 15:15:13 GMT
Market forces: come to us for an alternative. I wonder if it's especially in low in places that were hotbeds of recusancy. Not sure, to be honest. My Lancashire ancestors were recusants and, after the lessening of the penal laws, the Catholic community became visibly dominant in those areas. As a way to appeal, local Anglican churches often became Anglo-Catholic; similarly,in urban areas, though for different reasons, where the high proportion of Irish, Italian, Poles settled, the local C of E parishes are often High Church/Anglo-Catholic. This is often to do with the strong tradition of Anglo-Catholic clergy working among the poorest communities. Both RC and C of E populations were living in poor conditions in the cities. Saying that, Liverpool and West Lancs is very low church indeed in Anglican terms - but yes, the Blackburn diocese isn't the same. Though "Lancashire low" is a very particular type of churchmanship which is, frankly, a bit grim and austere! Not especially evangelical but very definitely not Catholic in style. In Liverpool certainly, the Anglicans were third in line in terms of church attendance, well behind the Romans and the nonconforming Protestants - there is still a congregation which was opened by Ian Paisley Sr, opposite Goodison Park! |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 4, 2021 17:22:27 GMT
Quite common for several churches to have a team ministry with one or two priests handling several church buildings and alternating services, especially in rural areas. The problem is partly that many buildings are old, listed and therefore difficult to close as the building will be harder to sell, and partially that differences in worship styles mean that churches are not interchangable - close an Anglo-Catholic parish and the congregation will not be happy to go to the evangelical parish down the road. Also, small congregations are often very reluctant to close. Locally, we have four Anglican churches in two benefices, though one is now little more than a school chapel. The vicar of one of them has the freehold which means he has a job for life. They wanted him to be Team Rector to all four churches. He advised them to pay a voluntary visit to a taxidermist. Two of the churches are the same churchmanship but they hate each other so refuse to merge even though one of them meets in a room in the church hall as the church was found to be riddled with asbestos. The fourth church is anglo-Catholic but they ended up with a vicar who isn't. None of them have a regular congregation of much over 30. So reminiscent of my childhood in nonconformist North Wales. 40 regular worshippers split between Baptist, Congregationalist, Methodist (Calvinist), Methodist (Wesleyan) - four congregations and four buildings. Dafydd Iwan (former Plaid Cymru bigwig) even had a song lyric for any suggestion of amalgamating: "Pawb o'r capel nesa' yn dod i capel ni" = Everybody from the next chapel coming to our chapel (Oh, and some denominations would have two chapels, one for each language) |
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 4, 2021 17:28:15 GMT
Also, small congregations are often very reluctant to close. Locally, we have four Anglican churches in two benefices, though one is now little more than a school chapel. The vicar of one of them has the freehold which means he has a job for life. They wanted him to be Team Rector to all four churches. He advised them to pay a voluntary visit to a taxidermist. Two of the churches are the same churchmanship but they hate each other so refuse to merge even though one of them meets in a room in the church hall as the church was found to be riddled with asbestos. The fourth church is anglo-Catholic but they ended up with a vicar who isn't. None of them have a regular congregation of much over 30. So reminiscent of my childhood in nonconformist North Wales. 40 regular worshippers split between Baptist, Congregationalist, Methodist (Calvinist), Methodist (Wesleyan) - four congregations and four buildings. Dafydd Iwan (former Plaid Cymru bigwig) even had a song lyric for any suggestion of amalgamating: "Pawb o'r capel nesa' yn dod i capel ni" = Everybody from the next chapel coming to our chapel (Oh, and some denominations would have two chapels, one for each language) Were the Baptists primitive? |
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