Swiss referenda

[Deleted]

As per sentiments regardng immigrants in the UK, it would be interesting to see what correlation there is between percentage of population that is immigrant and how the canton voted.

[carlton43]

Feb 10, 2014 21:22:15 GMT jamesdoyle said:

As per sentiments regardng immigrants in the UK, it would be interesting to see what correlation there is between percentage of population that is immigrant and how the canton voted.

Oh !!!  I don't think that is in much doubt?

[Devonian]

Percentage of Yes Vote by Canton

Ticino 68.2%
Appenzell I.-Rh. 63.5%
Schwyz 63.1%
Glarus 59.4%
Obwalden 59.1%
Nidwalden 58.8%
Uri 58.2%
Schaffhausen 58.1%
Thurgau 57.8%
St. Gallen 55.9%
Aargau 55.2%
Solothurn 54.6%
Appenzell A.-Rh. 54.4%
Luzern 53.3%
Bern 51.1%
Basel-Landschaft 50.6%
Graubünden 50.6%
Zug 49.9%
Fribourg 48.5%
Wallis 48.3%
Zürich 47.3%
Jura 44.1%
Neuchâtel 39.3%
Genève 39.1 %
Basel-Stadt 39.0%
Vaud 38.9%

[Pete Whitehead]

I do think you should not use the German names for Ticino and the French cantons

[Devonian]

Feb 10, 2014 23:10:06 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

I do think you should not use the German names for Ticino and the French cantons

Point taken, amended

[Sibboleth]

Typical PC nonsense from Pete.

[Merseymike]

Of course, the Swiss are not bound by treaty but by bilateral agreement.
This means that if they withdraw from one aspect of the agreement, the rest is unlikely to remain untouched
The Swiss government is really not too keen on this owing to these consequences - which is the problem with direct democracy when only half of the story is put to plebiscite. I very much doubt they would have voted for ejection from the single market, but that is what will happen....their lookout.

[Deleted]

They (the EU) have started the ratchet...

[Richard Allen]

Feb 11, 2014 10:30:24 GMT Merseymike said:

Of course, the Swiss are not bound by treaty but by bilateral agreement.
This means that if they withdraw from one aspect of the agreement, the rest is unlikely to remain untouched
The Swiss government is really not too keen on this owing to these consequences - which is the problem with direct democracy when only half of the story is put to plebiscite. I very much doubt they would have voted for ejection from the single market, but that is what will happen....their lookout.

How typically arrogant of you to assume that Swiss voters have no understanding of the potential consequences of how they voted.

[tricky]

Feb 11, 2014 10:30:24 GMT Merseymike said:

Of course, the Swiss are not bound by treaty but by bilateral agreement.
This means that if they withdraw from one aspect of the agreement, the rest is unlikely to remain untouched
The Swiss government is really not too keen on this owing to these consequences - which is the problem with direct democracy when only half of the story is put to plebiscite. I very much doubt they would have voted for ejection from the single market, but that is what will happen....their lookout.

Actually the bilaterals are all connected. If one falls they all fall.

There will need to be a renegotiation at least in part because it isn't a Single Market if people cannot freely proffer their labour.

It always amuses me when people say they want to end free movement of people AND complete the Single Market in services. You can't do both.

[Merseymike]

Feb 11, 2014 23:26:33 GMT tricky said:

Feb 11, 2014 10:30:24 GMT Merseymike said:

Of course, the Swiss are not bound by treaty but by bilateral agreement.
This means that if they withdraw from one aspect of the agreement, the rest is unlikely to remain untouched
The Swiss government is really not too keen on this owing to these consequences - which is the problem with direct democracy when only half of the story is put to plebiscite. I very much doubt they would have voted for ejection from the single market, but that is what will happen....their lookout.

Actually the bilaterals are all connected. If one falls they all fall.

There will need to be a renegotiation at least in part because it isn't a Single Market if people cannot freely proffer their labour.

It always amuses me when people say they want to end free movement of people AND complete the Single Market in services. You can't do both.

Exactly. The Swiss government are desperate to try and rejig this one....

[carlton43]

Feb 12, 2014 15:18:25 GMT Merseymike said:

Feb 11, 2014 23:26:33 GMT tricky said:

Actually the bilaterals are all connected. If one falls they all fall.

There will need to be a renegotiation at least in part because it isn't a Single Market if people cannot freely proffer their labour.

It always amuses me when people say they want to end free movement of people AND complete the Single Market in services. You can't do both.

Exactly. The Swiss government are desperate to try and rejig this one....

Or to put it in EU terms 'To adjust and correct the error made by the majority of the voters....to a more acceptable decision'. Roll on Brave New World!

[Merseymike]

Feb 12, 2014 15:27:15 GMT carlton43 said:

Feb 12, 2014 15:18:25 GMT Merseymike said:

Exactly. The Swiss government are desperate to try and rejig this one....

Or to put it in EU terms 'To adjust and correct the error made by the majority of the voters....to a more acceptable decision'. Roll on Brave New World!

Then the voters will lose the benefit of the rest of the bilateral agreement. No picking and choosing.

[carlton43]

Feb 12, 2014 15:30:31 GMT Merseymike said:

Feb 12, 2014 15:27:15 GMT carlton43 said:

Or to put it in EU terms 'To adjust and correct the error made by the majority of the voters....to a more acceptable decision'. Roll on Brave New World!

Then the voters will lose the benefit of the rest of the bilateral agreement. No picking and choosing.

Are we suggesting that the electorate didn't know the possible effects or that they are stupid or that they wish to leave the agreement?

I would have voted 'Yes' for both reasons.....To stop free movement and to hasten the exit. But, I don't think that the Swiss did.

I think that on the day cessation of free movement with dilution of wage rates and pressure on bottom end jobs outweighed fears of upsetting Brussells. Probably they rightly think their Government will be able to arrange a fudge and mudge 'let' to allow them to do this to the East Europeans of whom many bluecollars are rightly very worried.

We should do the same here. Ignore the EU complaints and very very slowly negotiate a 'let' for ourselves; depending on the EU not wishing to see us exit and the loss of our over-large contribution. Play hard ball with them and be prepared to be a serial rule breaker and non-enforcer of everything that suits us or doesn't suit us. Rely upon the labyrinthine machination of the EU to give us bags of wriggle time and appeal time, and silent shrug time....until much of the problem is away with the East Europeans all sitting in other countries...or we are out of the accursed organization altogether.  

[Deleted]

Feb 11, 2014 23:26:33 GMT tricky said:

Feb 11, 2014 10:30:24 GMT Merseymike said:

Of course, the Swiss are not bound by treaty but by bilateral agreement.
This means that if they withdraw from one aspect of the agreement, the rest is unlikely to remain untouched
The Swiss government is really not too keen on this owing to these consequences - which is the problem with direct democracy when only half of the story is put to plebiscite. I very much doubt they would have voted for ejection from the single market, but that is what will happen....their lookout.

Actually the bilaterals are all connected. If one falls they all fall.

There will need to be a renegotiation at least in part because it isn't a Single Market if people cannot freely proffer their labour.

It always amuses me when people say they want to end free movement of people AND complete the Single Market in services. You can't do both.

But it never stops UKIP promising that we can have a 'pick n'mix' approach to europe. That the Swiss voted as they did is their democratic right,  & that comes with consequences. That's the way life works.

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2014 20:52:38 GMT @robin said:

Feb 11, 2014 23:26:33 GMT tricky said:

Actually the bilaterals are all connected. If one falls they all fall.

There will need to be a renegotiation at least in part because it isn't a Single Market if people cannot freely proffer their labour.

It always amuses me when people say they want to end free movement of people AND complete the Single Market in services. You can't do both.

But it never stops UKIP promising that we can have a 'pick n'mix' approach to europe. That the Swiss voted as they did is their democratic right,  & that comes with consequences. That's the way life works.

Funny a Labour Cllr should say that having an EU referendum is a democratic right...

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2014 21:03:00 GMT joe said:

Feb 12, 2014 20:52:38 GMT @robin said:

But it never stops UKIP promising that we can have a 'pick n'mix' approach to europe. That the Swiss voted as they did is their democratic right,  & that comes with consequences. That's the way life works.

Funny a Labour Cllr should say that having an EU referendum is a democratic right...

Every country has its own democratic traditions  

[Merseymike]

And thankfully ours is representative democracy

[Merseymike]

Feb 12, 2014 15:47:20 GMT carlton43 said:

Feb 12, 2014 15:30:31 GMT Merseymike said:

Then the voters will lose the benefit of the rest of the bilateral agreement. No picking and choosing.

Are we suggesting that the electorate didn't know the possible effects or that they are stupid or that they wish to leave the agreement?

I would have voted 'Yes' for both reasons.....To stop free movement and to hasten the exit. But, I don't think that the Swiss did.

I think that on the day cessation of free movement with dilution of wage rates and pressure on bottom end jobs outweighed fears of upsetting Brussells. Probably they rightly think their Government will be able to arrange a fudge and mudge 'let' to allow them to do this to the East Europeans of whom many bluecollars are rightly very worried.

We should do the same here. Ignore the EU complaints and very very slowly negotiate a 'let' for ourselves; depending on the EU not wishing to see us exit and the loss of our over-large contribution. Play hard ball with them and be prepared to be a serial rule breaker and non-enforcer of everything that suits us or doesn't suit us. Rely upon the labyrinthine machination of the EU to give us bags of wriggle time and appeal time, and silent shrug time....until much of the problem is away with the East Europeans all sitting in other countries...or we are out of the accursed organization altogether.  

As full members we dont have that option as our agreement is bound by treaty not a bilateral agreement

This is the problem with referendums. They decide only part of the picture. The Swiss benefit considerably from the single market but they cannot pick and mix. Free movement of labour is an integral part of the agreement they signed up to. I don't hear the Tories wanting the end of the single market either

I thought of you today. What I like about this country you view as its ruin . Watching the TV programme about Westminster registry office I wss genuinely moved by the people going through their citizenship ceremony. Many had come to the UK from countries where they had faced persecution. They found their home here. I sm glsd we are that sort of country not the monochrome inward looking Britain of the past.

[Richard Allen]

Feb 12, 2014 23:44:58 GMT Merseymike said:

And thankfully ours is representative democracy

Unfortunately it isn't. Our elected representatives have given so much power to others, be it the EU or various domestic agencies, who are unelected and unaccountable that our democracy is a total sham. The people of this country have no control and little influence over huge aspects of how they are governed. You may think that is a good thing, obviously I disagree, but to call it democracy is a grotesque distortion.