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Post by greatkingrat on Jul 2, 2023 9:32:07 GMT
What’s your point caller? That the major churches in this country are to the detriment of the British people and they should explicitly state if they have religious views not shared by the majority (that they will implement as an elected representative) before they are elected, or stand for an explicitly religious party. Otherwise, this is dishonesty. Surely all politicians, religious or otherwise, have some views that are not shared by the majority. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 9:55:10 GMT
There is a major fraud case ongoing involving one of the largest trade unions in the country and one of the smaller trade unions is on the verge of collapse due to a conspiracy to cover up sexual harassment claims against its now former General Secretary. This does not mean that trade unions are inherently awful organizations of no value to the public, it is simply an illustration of the unfortunate fact that all human institutions are fallible due to the inherently fallible nature of human beings. Indeed so. I would argue that the fact religious bodies are subject to all the well-known human fallibilities (such as covering up crimes committed by people who are otherwise popular), is an example of positive evidence for the non-existence of gods. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 10:35:23 GMT
There is a major fraud case ongoing involving one of the largest trade unions in the country and one of the smaller trade unions is on the verge of collapse due to a conspiracy to cover up sexual harassment claims against its now former General Secretary. This does not mean that trade unions are inherently awful organizations of no value to the public, it is simply an illustration of the unfortunate fact that all human institutions are fallible due to the inherently fallible nature of human beings. Indeed so. I would argue that the fact religious bodies are subject to all the well-known human fallibilities (such as covering up crimes committed by people who are otherwise popular), is an example of positive evidence for the non-existence of gods. Tell me you’ve never read the Bible without telling me you’ve never read the Bible. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 10:54:38 GMT
No, of course I've never wasted my time with a book of hoary old myths. What's your point?
My underlying point is that there's almost nothing that the existence or non-existence of god(s) must make a difference to. But one thing it must affect, at the fundamental base level, is the thinking of people depending on whether they believe in one. A god must be able to help people do what they should be doing, over a non-believer, and make some difference. If not, if no god has such a power, then they don't have a power to do anything and can be dismissed.
So if a religious body which entirely consists of people who absolutely believe and always ask god for help as to what to do, has the same propinquity for making mistakes and doing bad things as a body which consists of nonbelievers, then god's not doing anything.
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 2, 2023 11:29:44 GMT
That’s a quirk of an Episcopal polity. It wouldn’t happen in a Presbyterian polity where a new minister is chosen by the church elders rather than imposed from above. I’m not sure it’s a ‘quirk’, more a reflection of the underlying philosophical view of leadership, which is one of the reasons the RC church has more problems than most on this front. That would be an ecumenical matter. |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 2, 2023 11:30:01 GMT
That the major churches in this country are to the detriment of the British people and they should explicitly state if they have religious views not shared by the majority (that they will implement as an elected representative) before they are elected, or stand for an explicitly religious party. Otherwise, this is dishonesty. That is barking mad, if you don’t like their views then don’t vote for them. Often these people do not stand on a manifesto disclosing these views. |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 2, 2023 11:31:16 GMT
That the major churches in this country are to the detriment of the British people and they should explicitly state if they have religious views not shared by the majority (that they will implement as an elected representative) before they are elected, or stand for an explicitly religious party. Otherwise, this is dishonesty. Surely all politicians, religious or otherwise, have some views that are not shared by the majority. That's fine, but stand on a platform that reflects those views.... |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 11:57:05 GMT
That is barking mad, if you don’t like their views then don’t vote for them. Often these people do not stand on a manifesto disclosing these views. So do you wish them do disclose every single view they hold which happens do deviate from their manifesto or just those you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about? |
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Post by greatkingrat on Jul 2, 2023 12:51:36 GMT
Surely all politicians, religious or otherwise, have some views that are not shared by the majority. That's fine, but stand on a platform that reflects those views.... There is a difference between views and policies. Someone may believe that gay sex or abortion is wrong, while accepting that they are legal, and not wishing to change the current legislation. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 12:57:55 GMT
No, of course I've never wasted my time with a book of hoary old myths. What's your point? My underlying point is that there's almost nothing that the existence or non-existence of god(s) must make a difference to. But one thing it must affect, at the fundamental base level, is the thinking of people depending on whether they believe in one. A god must be able to help people do what they should be doing, over a non-believer, and make some difference. If not, if no god has such a power, then they don't have a power to do anything and can be dismissed. So if a religious body which entirely consists of people who absolutely believe and always ask god for help as to what to do, has the same propinquity for making mistakes and doing bad things as a body which consists of nonbelievers, then god's not doing anything. That’s Pelagianism, which you would know is a heresy if you weren’t ignorant or the bible. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 13:45:31 GMT
I'm not a christian so "heresy" is a nothing.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 14:01:41 GMT
I'm not a christian so "heresy" is a nothing. Irrelevant. You have no understanding of the doctrine of Total Depravity. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 14:10:33 GMT
Simply quoting obscure christian theology isn't going to do anything. The point applies wider than just christianity. Would you accept that if god(s) don't actually affect any material thing or any behaviour in the real world, they are nonexistent?
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 14:27:37 GMT
Simply quoting obscure christian theology isn't going to do anything. The point applies wider than just christianity. Would you accept that if god(s) don't actually affect any material thing or any behaviour in the real world, they are nonexistent? Total depravity is not obscure theology, it’s the one matter almost every denomination agrees on. And I don’t care about other religions who have varying concepts of sin. Your premise is philosophically lame and I obviously reject it. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 14:53:03 GMT
Obvious evasion of the question.
If god(s) don't actually affect any material thing or any behaviour in the real world, they are nonexistent?
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 15:23:55 GMT
Obvious evasion of the question. If god(s) don't actually affect any material thing or any behaviour in the real world, they are nonexistent? No I don’t think that’s a reasonable premise. You certainly don’t have the knowledge to make that premise. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 2, 2023 15:23:56 GMT
Obvious evasion of the question. If god(s) don't actually affect any material thing or any behaviour in the real world, they are nonexistent? Dave old chap just give it a rest. We have morphed and converted ourselves into a secular society and you have won the contest. If you are secure in your own head as a non-Christian let alone as an atheist, then there is no need to fight on. Those of religious persuasion will be ever with us and frankly are not doing anyone any harm at all by being ordinary lay believers and supporters. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 15:33:41 GMT
We have morphed and converted ourselves into a secular society and you have won the contest. We plainly have not. We have a state religion, legally enforced indoctrination of children, religious representatives in our legislature. Religious privilege is everywhere. We are not a christian country (and never were - the term is meaningless) but the UK is not a secular society. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 15:42:52 GMT
We have morphed and converted ourselves into a secular society and you have won the contest. We plainly have not. We have a state religion, legally enforced indoctrination of children, religious representatives in our legislature. Religious privilege is everywhere. We are not a christian country (and never were - the term is meaningless) but the UK is not a secular society. But enough about LGBTQXYZ…… |
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Post by aargauer on Jul 2, 2023 15:53:41 GMT
We have morphed and converted ourselves into a secular society and you have won the contest. We plainly have not. We have a state religion, legally enforced indoctrination of children, religious representatives in our legislature. Religious privilege is everywhere. We are not a christian country (and never were - the term is meaningless) but the UK is not a secular society. What is the legally forced religious indoctrination of children? |
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