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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 16:04:20 GMT
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jul 2, 2023 16:25:21 GMT
We plainly have not. We have a state religion, legally enforced indoctrination of children, religious representatives in our legislature. Religious privilege is everywhere. We are not a christian country (and never were - the term is meaningless) but the UK is not a secular society. What is the legally forced religious indoctrination of children? The fact SACRE is a mandatory committee for councils and most SACREs are refusing seats to humanists/atheists is a start. Not to mention than, in many villages, the only school is CofE, with mandatory worship and so on. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Jul 2, 2023 16:29:48 GMT
There is a big difference between the de jure position and the de facto position. The church has a lot of power in theory, but very little in practice.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 2, 2023 16:32:10 GMT
There is a big difference between the de jure position and the de facto position. The church has a lot of power in theory, but very little in practice. I dispute that, but if it was the case then there could be no possible objection to the church losing its power in theory as well, could there? |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 2, 2023 18:22:28 GMT
What is the legally forced religious indoctrination of children? The fact SACRE is a mandatory committee for councils and most SACREs are refusing seats to humanists/atheists is a start. Not to mention than, in many villages, the only school is CofE, with mandatory worship and so on. Speaking as someone who sat on the council's SACRE committee for a number of years, it's as good as a device to stop you believing in a deity as mankind has ever come up with. |
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r34t
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Post by r34t on Jul 2, 2023 18:26:22 GMT
The fact SACRE is a mandatory committee for councils and most SACREs are refusing seats to humanists/atheists is a start. Not to mention than, in many villages, the only school is CofE, with mandatory worship and so on. Speaking as someone who sat on the council's SACRE committee for a number of years, it's as good as a device to stop you believing in a deity as mankind has ever come up with. & our local £7k pa budget gives such power |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 19:01:50 GMT
It warms the cockles to know that. |
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iang
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Post by iang on Jul 2, 2023 21:11:56 GMT
I sit on a SACRE and I sit on the same committee (table essentially) as the Humanist rep, so where the idea comes from that SACREs ban humanist representation; I'm not sure
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 2, 2023 21:29:01 GMT
Often these people do not stand on a manifesto disclosing these views. So do you wish them do disclose every single view they hold which happens do deviate from their manifesto or just those you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about? Disclose their views in the name of integrity. You wouldn't buy a product without the full details, so why would you vote for a politician without knowing what they believe and represent? |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 2, 2023 21:32:08 GMT
That's fine, but stand on a platform that reflects those views.... There is a difference between views and policies. Someone may believe that gay sex or abortion is wrong, while accepting that they are legal, and not wishing to change the current legislation. Then why disclose those views publicly and sow seeds of doubt about your honesty and integrity in the minds of electors you seek to represent? |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jul 2, 2023 21:40:55 GMT
I sit on a SACRE and I sit on the same committee (table essentially) as the Humanist rep, so where the idea comes from that SACREs ban humanist representation; I'm not sure There was high-profiles cases in Birmingham, Kent, Southampton (where the CofE rep pretty much threathened war on the council if they dared allow it) and Vale of Glamorgan. In both Vale of Glamorgan and Kent, it took a court decision to force them. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 2, 2023 21:47:47 GMT
So do you wish them do disclose every single view they hold which happens do deviate from their manifesto or just those you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about? Disclose their views in the name of integrity. You wouldn't buy a product without the full details, so why would you vote for a politician without knowing what they believe and represent? The “remoaner” defense. I’m perfectly capable of doing my own research to root out militant atheists from my voting preferences. |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 2, 2023 22:01:49 GMT
I sit on a SACRE and I sit on the same committee (table essentially) as the Humanist rep, so where the idea comes from that SACREs ban humanist representation; I'm not sure There was high-profiles cases in Birmingham, Kent, Southampton (where the CofE rep pretty much threathened war on the council if they dared allow it) and Vale of Glamorgan. In both Vale of Glamorgan and Kent, it took a court decision to force them. War? How many divisions has the Archbishop? |
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iang
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Post by iang on Jul 2, 2023 22:03:52 GMT
I sit on a SACRE and I sit on the same committee (table essentially) as the Humanist rep, so where the idea comes from that SACREs ban humanist representation; I'm not sure There was high-profiles cases in Birmingham, Kent, Southampton (where the CofE rep pretty much threathened war on the council if they dared allow it) and Vale of Glamorgan. In both Vale of Glamorgan and Kent, it took a court decision to force them. I'm on Birmingham |
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 2, 2023 22:28:56 GMT
Disclose their views in the name of integrity. You wouldn't buy a product without the full details, so why would you vote for a politician without knowing what they believe and represent? I’m perfectly capable of doing my own research to root out militant atheists from my voting preferences. That is entirely your right.... |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Jul 3, 2023 0:36:56 GMT
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Post by iainbhx on Jul 3, 2023 6:40:21 GMT
There was high-profiles cases in Birmingham, Kent, Southampton (where the CofE rep pretty much threathened war on the council if they dared allow it) and Vale of Glamorgan. In both Vale of Glamorgan and Kent, it took a court decision to force them. I'm on Birmingham Now about 15 years ago, I was told I couldn't go on SACRE because I'm a non-believer. |
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iang
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Post by iang on Jul 3, 2023 7:11:18 GMT
Well Guy Hordern is still the VC, and still sits on committee D, so describing him as being "got rid of" isn't accurate, and what evidence have you got that he is a "fundamentalist"?
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jul 3, 2023 8:49:27 GMT
There is a major fraud case ongoing involving one of the largest trade unions in the country and one of the smaller trade unions is on the verge of collapse due to a conspiracy to cover up sexual harassment claims against its now former General Secretary. This does not mean that trade unions are inherently awful organizations of no value to the public, it is simply an illustration of the unfortunate fact that all human institutions are fallible due to the inherently fallible nature of human beings. Churches, however, have a habit of moving their errant priests from one parish to another without warning the new parish why, or sending them on extended "retreat" out of the public eye, rather than doing what they ought to and defrocking them. One gets the emphasis on the principle of forgiveness, but where criminal actions are involved the churches need to front up and clean up. And in this they are distinct, because certainly no other organisations quietly cover up the sexual misbehaviour of powerful individuals within their ranks by moving them and their critics from place to place. Woden. The mainstream opions in my youth now made to be a social crime even to be mentioned. Sick dreadful nation this has become. I wonder about this from a philosophical point of view.
I suspect most of his opponents wouldn't actually accept the concept of 'sin' as designated by the Christian church, and I was wondering also what Woden's view was on the idea? "Sin" isn't really a concept that seems to come up in Germanic religion, in that there isn't anybody judging your behaviour after death (except insofar as to the manner of death.) Certainly a lack of manliness led to social opprobrium and to a certain extent it's analogous, but then again Óðinn (and presumably therefore Woden) is sometimes himself accused of a lack of manliness, particular in terms of his status as a magic-user and the association of magic-related behaviours with non-normative gender and sexual behaviours. |
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Jul 3, 2023 9:28:11 GMT
Churches, however, have a habit of moving their errant priests from one parish to another without warning the new parish why, or sending them on extended "retreat" out of the public eye, rather than doing what they ought to and defrocking them. One gets the emphasis on the principle of forgiveness, but where criminal actions are involved the churches need to front up and clean up. And in this they are distinct, because certainly no other organisations quietly cover up the sexual misbehaviour of powerful individuals within their ranks by moving them and their critics from place to place. I wonder about this from a philosophical point of view.
I suspect most of his opponents wouldn't actually accept the concept of 'sin' as designated by the Christian church, and I was wondering also what Woden's view was on the idea? "Sin" isn't really a concept that seems to come up in Germanic religion, in that there isn't anybody judging your behaviour after death (except insofar as to the manner of death.) Certainly a lack of manliness led to social opprobrium and to a certain extent it's analogous, but then again Óðinn (and presumably therefore Woden) is sometimes himself accused of a lack of manliness, particular in terms of his status as a magic-user and the association of magic-related behaviours with non-normative gender and sexual behaviours. That would be highly unlikely within a Presbyterian polity, it’s no coincidence there were significantly less abuse scandals involving the Presbyterian churches. |
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