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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 11, 2021 8:38:57 GMT
Except we all know there is no evidence of a mass postal vote fraud anywhere in the UK since the system of personal identifiers was brought in.
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on May 11, 2021 8:39:27 GMT
Regarding the global fame of Batley ; who can forget Monty Python's sketch of the Batley Townswomen's Guild and their re-enactment of the battle of Pearl Harbour?
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Post by hullenedge on May 11, 2021 8:44:44 GMT
It's not on YouTube but the BBC have a wonderful clip of Eartha Kitt singing On Ilkla Moor baht 'at in Batley. She struggled to get work in the US (she'd upset LBJ) so performed at Batley Variety Club. Mum says that she was brilliant. The best performer ever at the club and they had some top class acts.
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CatholicLeft
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Post by CatholicLeft on May 11, 2021 9:32:22 GMT
Hindus and Sikhs in London have been swinging Tory I saw, but I don't think Muslims are. Keep in mind Boris's comments about Islamic dress. There are polling districts where you would soon spot that in the verification though. There will be many exceptions though, a growing minority could well be due to satisfaction with the government (as has been seen across communities) - places like Pendle and Blackburn (where that Conservative candidate with the eccentric video won), Bolton and Oldham where there were swings against Labour. Yet nearby very white Wigan was an excellent result for Labour, though whether that was the Burnham/Nandy effect remains to be seen. As has been mentioned a significant minority if not a majority of Asian origin in less well-off areas voted leave on the basis of anti-EU migration ("why should Eastern Europeans get a free pass here?") - take UKIP's candidates in Bradford and Rochdale for example. So nobody of any community can be taken for granted. The guy in Audley and Queens Park ward in Blackburn did not win due to a shift to the Conservative Party among the Muslim population, he won because the Labour candidate was not popular with some community leaders (including leading Labour figures) and was, in my personal experience, downright lazy. Indeed, Labour gained a seat from the Tories with a Muslim candidate beating a Muslim Tory in Billinge and Beardswood ward. |
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right
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 9:53:04 GMT
Except we all know there is no evidence of a mass postal vote fraud anywhere in the UK since the system of personal identifiers was brought in. No, "everyone" doesn't know this, and any aggressive (even if arguably legal) vote farming could be problematic for Westminster opponents of the voting reforms. They will want to get this on to the grounds of "vote suppression" rather than "of course Labour want to keep postal voting easy". I'm against the photo-ID requirements (although postal voting is a mess) so I'm not as interested in a Conservative win here as I may be in other reasons. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 10:23:33 GMT
That's true now in a number of places, where I suspect Labour will start to be perceived as the " Asian " party. In Pendle, all 10 of Labour's Councillors are from the Asian Community despite it numbering only around 15% of residents, and in Burnley, 10/18, with the Asian community representing only 11% or so of the population. One of Burnley's Council wards has a postal vote figure of over 30%, whereas the average for the other 14 wards is around 15% which again will reinforce certain prejudices and suspicions This doesn't bode well for " Community cohesion " , sadly ...  Yes, postal votes screams out at me here The electoral legislation within the Queen's Speech could well be brought forward if there was a credible suggestion of vote farming, as there was in Peterborough. Any principled opposition, particularly in the Lords, could be easily presented as defending an unfair partisan advantage if there is a narrow Labour margin helped by postal votes. There was no "credible" suggestion of vote farming |
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 10:31:27 GMT
My assumption would be that individual voter id for postal votes has made vote farming more arduous, and has probably reduced the incidence of it, but has not eradicated it altogether. But evidence would be needed to confirm or disprove this, and efforts to find out seem lacking.
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Post by matureleft on May 11, 2021 10:33:04 GMT
That's true now in a number of places, where I suspect Labour will start to be perceived as the " Asian " party. In Pendle, all 10 of Labour's Councillors are from the Asian Community despite it numbering only around 15% of residents, and in Burnley, 10/18, with the Asian community representing only 11% or so of the population. One of Burnley's Council wards has a postal vote figure of over 30%, whereas the average for the other 14 wards is around 15% which again will reinforce certain prejudices and suspicions This doesn't bode well for " Community cohesion " , sadly ... Yes, postal votes screams out at me here The electoral legislation within the Queen's Speech could well be brought forward if there was a credible suggestion of vote farming, as there was in Peterborough. Any principled opposition, particularly in the Lords, could be easily presented as defending an unfair partisan advantage if there is a narrow Labour margin helped by postal votes. It may be worth posting this again.
There were indeed "suggestions" of vote farming and (as the article says) that wasn't a new accusation. But were those suggestions "credible"? The investigations led nowhere I believe.
Of course some parties seem to object to both high turnouts and organisation among minority voters. That's not the same as fraud.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 10:46:11 GMT
Yes, postal votes screams out at me here The electoral legislation within the Queen's Speech could well be brought forward if there was a credible suggestion of vote farming, as there was in Peterborough. Any principled opposition, particularly in the Lords, could be easily presented as defending an unfair partisan advantage if there is a narrow Labour margin helped by postal votes. It may be worth posting this again.
There were indeed "suggestions" of vote farming and (as the article says) that wasn't a new accusation. But were those suggestions "credible"? The investigations led nowhere I believe.
Of course some parties seem to object to both high turnouts and organisation among minority voters. That's not the same as fraud.
Hmm, "organisation" seems sometimes to be a euphemism for the importation of subcontinental Biraderi practices into UK elections; whether this is a good thing is highly debatable. In-person voting by secret ballot provides at least a potential way out of this. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on May 11, 2021 10:50:30 GMT
Though it is of course inaccurate to claim that Labour are the only beneficiaries of this sort of thing, indeed there is evidence of that in certain results last week.
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 10:54:10 GMT
Though it is of course inaccurate to claim that Labour are the only beneficiaries of this sort of thing, indeed there is evidence of that in certain results last week. Oh, I'm sure you're right, but it's undesirable regardless of the beneficiary. And there are frequent mutterings about Tory-inclined "management" of the votes in residential/care homes. It just needs a wholesale clean-up. |
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right
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 11:40:56 GMT
Though it is of course inaccurate to claim that Labour are the only beneficiaries of this sort of thing, indeed there is evidence of that in certain results last week. Oh, I'm sure you're right, but it's undesirable regardless of the beneficiary. And there are frequent mutterings about Tory-inclined "management" of the votes in residential/care homes. It just needs a wholesale clean-up. Agreed. I found it very hard to help someone in my house send out her vote without me seeing how she voted (I did manage it). This was the first time I've tried to help someone else to post a vote, and the lack of privacy shocked me. I always thought this was far more malign and deliberate. |
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Post by where2travel on May 11, 2021 11:50:11 GMT
Oh, I'm sure you're right, but it's undesirable regardless of the beneficiary. And there are frequent mutterings about Tory-inclined "management" of the votes in residential/care homes. It just needs a wholesale clean-up. Agreed. I found it very hard to help someone in my house send out her vote without me seeing how she voted (I did manage it). This was the first time I've tried to help someone else to post a vote, and the lack of privacy shocked me. I always thought this was far more malign and deliberate. Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)? |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on May 11, 2021 11:54:41 GMT
Agreed. I found it very hard to help someone in my house send out her vote without me seeing how she voted (I did manage it). This was the first time I've tried to help someone else to post a vote, and the lack of privacy shocked me. I always thought this was far more malign and deliberate. Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)?
Yes
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right
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 11:57:23 GMT
Agreed. I found it very hard to help someone in my house send out her vote without me seeing how she voted (I did manage it). This was the first time I've tried to help someone else to post a vote, and the lack of privacy shocked me. I always thought this was far more malign and deliberate. Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)? It sounds odd, as I often post in and didn't really see the difficulty with secrecy. But I was asked to do everything but vote - tore off ballot papers, asked for signature on right place, putting correct papers into envelopes, go to post box. It just proved hard to keep secrecy in a way I hadn't anticipated. Could be natural clumsiness. |
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hengo
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Post by hengo on May 11, 2021 11:59:17 GMT
What is actually the issue? Are we talking about personation or the practice among some cultures for all the family votes to be effectively determined by the head of the family? If the latter that happens pretty much with the consent of those concerned , and was hardly unknown before postal voting became common as anyone who attended polling stations in certain areas will know. Ultimately if those entitled to have a vote are content to let someone else tell them how to use it , it’s their business. I doubt if there is much real coercion. That said I see nothing much wrong in anything which helps to protect the integrity of the ballot.
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 11, 2021 12:01:07 GMT
Agreed. I found it very hard to help someone in my house send out her vote without me seeing how she voted (I did manage it). This was the first time I've tried to help someone else to post a vote, and the lack of privacy shocked me. I always thought this was far more malign and deliberate. Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)? It rather depends what right meant by "help" (and that's not an implication of anything inappropriate). Short of someone physically needing assistance to mark the ballot paper - and that would, in my view, be entirely appropriate in certain circumstances - I think it should be possible to help* without seeing how someone has voted. * Help includes explaining what goes in each envelope, the need to contain the signature within the box, getting the relevant address facing out of the window etc. |
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andrea
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Post by andrea on May 11, 2021 12:01:17 GMT
LabourList says that one candidate favored by Labour leadership for their nomination is Leeds Cllr Salma Arif
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right
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 12:08:04 GMT
Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)? It rather depends what right meant by "help" (and that's not an implication of anything inappropriate). Short of someone physically needing assistance to mark the ballot paper - and that would, in my view, be entirely appropriate in certain circumstances - I think it should be possible to help* without seeing how someone has voted. * Help includes explaining what goes in each envelope, the need to contain the signature within the box, getting the relevant address facing out of the window etc. So did I. And I managed it. But I thought it would be easy. It's not. That was a surprise to me, and I thought it was interesting to note this. |
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 12:17:46 GMT
What is actually the issue? Are we talking about personation or the practice among some cultures for all the family votes to be effectively determined by the head of the family? If the latter that happens pretty much with the consent of those concerned , and was hardly unknown before postal voting became common as anyone who attended polling stations in certain areas will know. Ultimately if those entitled to have a vote are content to let someone else tell them how to use it , it’s their business. I doubt if there is much real coercion. That said I see nothing much wrong in anything which helps to protect the integrity of the ballot. I hear you on that, but the issue is what happens when a family member *does* want to do their own thing and not submit to the direction of daddy, or grandad, or uncle as the case may be. The secret ballot is the safeguard here, and abrogating our responsibility to protect that as much as possible is, IMHO, deplorable. Children who have had the benefit of a UK education may not be quite as ready to toe the old-fashioned family line; we have a duty, as a matter of public policy, to support them. |
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