right
Conservative
Posts: 18,761
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 12:19:54 GMT
What is actually the issue? Are we talking about personation or the practice among some cultures for all the family votes to be effectively determined by the head of the family? If the latter that happens pretty much with the consent of those concerned , and was hardly unknown before postal voting became common as anyone who attended polling stations in certain areas will know. Ultimately if those entitled to have a vote are content to let someone else tell them how to use it , it’s their business. I doubt if there is much real coercion. That said I see nothing much wrong in anything which helps to protect the integrity of the ballot. There's something to this, and that's why I thought my experience suggested to me that this was a more common and less malign issue than I had thought before. However, the secret ballot was deliberately brought in so that people could vote as individuals. The stories of Irish tenant farmers being evicted for electing Daniel O'Connell are at one end, but it also applied to softer pressure from local figures such as the village vicar. That a great uncle who has made the Haj should not have certain knowledge of how his great nieces vote may not have been directly anticipated by the proponents of the secret ballot, but it's the sort of influence they did want to lessen. If we want to weaken the secret ballot the case should be made, rather than denying it or denouncing anyone who notices it as a racist. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 12:47:53 GMT
It's not on YouTube but the BBC have a wonderful clip of Eartha Kitt singing On Ilkla Moor baht 'at in Batley. She struggled to get work in the US (she'd upset LBJ) so performed at Batley Variety Club. Mum says that she was brilliant. The best performer ever at the club and they had some top class acts. My mum reminisces about this place fairly regularly. I find the list of entertainers who performed in Batley of all places quite extraordinary. |
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Post by andrew111 on May 11, 2021 13:09:02 GMT
Is this the same everywhere? I just cast my votes, put all three ballot papers in one envelope, which in turn went inside another envelope to post. Or is this because I have had a postal vote for some time (and presumably had to do the above and get someone else involved the first time round)? It rather depends what right meant by "help" (and that's not an implication of anything inappropriate). Short of someone physically needing assistance to mark the ballot paper - and that would, in my view, be entirely appropriate in certain circumstances - I think it should be possible to help* without seeing how someone has voted. * Help includes explaining what goes in each envelope, the need to contain the signature within the box, getting the relevant address facing out of the window etc. There were firm instructions from Kirklees elections to agents and candidates not to let any Party worker handle PV in any way. On voter ID, of course in a GE I could vote in person multiple times with little risk simply by starting at 7 am and using the electoral register to pick some youngster very unlikely to turn up in multiple polling districts. There is zero evidence that this ever happens though, and like postal vote harvesting it takes a lot of effort for a few votes. I would argue that on average PV are more secure than in person voting right now. |
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Post by andrew111 on May 11, 2021 13:24:19 GMT
You are sounding like Trump, trying to invalidate the electoral process in advance in case you don't get the "right result" Nothing like a personal insult to poison the well. It diminishes you. I'm not saying it's what they should do, it's just what they could do. There's going to be a very contentious piece of legislation coming through (as it happens I dislike the photo ID requirements) and if there's credible evidence that there is postal vote fraud this could well help pass it through, and associate opposition to the measures with fraud being advantageous to Labour. Well, sorry, no insult intended. I do regard the idea of significant postal vote fraud these days as essentially "fake news" though, and if you can find "credible evidence" for it (including the Peterborough by election) I would be interested to see it. We have seen how damaging casting unjustified doubt on the electoral process has been in the USA |
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hengo
Conservative
Posts: 1,689
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Post by hengo on May 11, 2021 13:42:47 GMT
What is actually the issue? Are we talking about personation or the practice among some cultures for all the family votes to be effectively determined by the head of the family? If the latter that happens pretty much with the consent of those concerned , and was hardly unknown before postal voting became common as anyone who attended polling stations in certain areas will know. Ultimately if those entitled to have a vote are content to let someone else tell them how to use it , it’s their business. I doubt if there is much real coercion. That said I see nothing much wrong in anything which helps to protect the integrity of the ballot. There's something to this, and that's why I thought my experience suggested to me that this was a more common and less malign issue than I had thought before. However, the secret ballot was deliberately brought in so that people could vote as individuals. The stories of Irish tenant farmers being evicted for electing Daniel O'Connell are at one end, but it also applied to softer pressure from local figures such as the village vicar. That a great uncle who has made the Haj should not have certain knowledge of how his great nieces vote may not have been directly anticipated by the proponents of the secret ballot, but it's the sort of influence they did want to lessen. If we want to weaken the secret ballot the case should be made, rather than denying it or denouncing anyone who notices it as a racist. Yes , I don’t disagree. And hopefully these “ cultural practices “ will gradually diminish in time. At present there’s no reason to suppose that the people concerned would vote any differently if they were genuinely in practice voting in secret. . But , as I concluded before , anything which improves the integrity of the ballot is ok by me, and good in principle , whether or not there is evidence of widespread abuse. |
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Post by andrew111 on May 11, 2021 14:29:53 GMT
There's something to this, and that's why I thought my experience suggested to me that this was a more common and less malign issue than I had thought before. However, the secret ballot was deliberately brought in so that people could vote as individuals. The stories of Irish tenant farmers being evicted for electing Daniel O'Connell are at one end, but it also applied to softer pressure from local figures such as the village vicar. That a great uncle who has made the Haj should not have certain knowledge of how his great nieces vote may not have been directly anticipated by the proponents of the secret ballot, but it's the sort of influence they did want to lessen. If we want to weaken the secret ballot the case should be made, rather than denying it or denouncing anyone who notices it as a racist. Yes , I don’t disagree. And hopefully these “ cultural practices “ will gradually diminish in time. At present there’s no reason to suppose that the people concerned would vote any differently if they were genuinely in practice voting in secret. . But , as I concluded before , anything which improves the integrity of the ballot is ok by me, and good in principle , whether or not there is evidence of widespread abuse. We have to be very careful about anything that makes it harder for people to vote since it almost inevitably discriminates against poor people, people who do not have ID because they do not drive or go abroad etc. The great thing about postal voters is that 70% of them vote even in local elections, while only 25% of the rest can be bothered. |
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,729
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 14:33:54 GMT
Yes , I don’t disagree. And hopefully these “ cultural practices “ will gradually diminish in time. At present there’s no reason to suppose that the people concerned would vote any differently if they were genuinely in practice voting in secret. . But , as I concluded before , anything which improves the integrity of the ballot is ok by me, and good in principle , whether or not there is evidence of widespread abuse. We have to be very careful about anything that makes it harder for people to vote since it almost inevitably discriminates against poor people, people who do not have ID because they do not drive or go abroad etc. The great thing about postal voters is that 70% of them vote even in local elections, while only 25% of the rest can be bothered. And as I've said elsewhere, those 70% are in all likelihood going to vote anyway, and have just gone to the trouble of applying for a postal vote to make sure. They might be a bit put out if it were taken away, but they'd make the trip in person.
For me, the integrity of the ballot trumps convenience every time. The secret ballot had to be fought for, and we throw it away at our peril.
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Post by andrew111 on May 11, 2021 14:39:55 GMT
We have to be very careful about anything that makes it harder for people to vote since it almost inevitably discriminates against poor people, people who do not have ID because they do not drive or go abroad etc. The great thing about postal voters is that 70% of them vote even in local elections, while only 25% of the rest can be bothered. And as I've said elsewhere, those 70% are in all likelihood going to vote anyway, and have just gone to the trouble of applying for a postal vote to make sure. They might be a bit put out if it were taken away, but they'd make the trip in person.
For me, the integrity of the ballot trumps convenience every time. The secret ballot had to be fought for, and we throw it away at our peril.
In my experience the majority of people with postal votes are either elderly or disabled and cannot easily get to the polls or busy professionals who are often away. Right now the postal vote is more secure than in person voting since a signature is required and I know several people who at some time in their life have turned up at a polling station to find their vote has already been cast.. The solution to that is photo ID but there are plenty of people who do not have that |
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on May 11, 2021 14:52:19 GMT
Yes , I don’t disagree. And hopefully these “ cultural practices “ will gradually diminish in time. At present there’s no reason to suppose that the people concerned would vote any differently if they were genuinely in practice voting in secret. . But , as I concluded before , anything which improves the integrity of the ballot is ok by me, and good in principle , whether or not there is evidence of widespread abuse. We have to be very careful about anything that makes it harder for people to vote since it almost inevitably discriminates against poor people, people who do not have ID because they do not drive or go abroad etc. The great thing about postal voters is that 70% of them vote even in local elections, while only 25% of the rest can be bothered. I take the other view that the ballot is a privilege that people have fought for, and a little difficulty and required effort to excercise that privilege is a small price to pay for ensuring its integrity. I would limit postal voting to those who have very strong reasons for being unable to vote in person. I wouldn't include in that “ busy professionals”. I was one of those , and only once was I really unable to vote- at other times I made sure I could. |
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right
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Posts: 18,761
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 14:53:28 GMT
We have to be very careful about anything that makes it harder for people to vote since it almost inevitably discriminates against poor people, people who do not have ID because they do not drive or go abroad etc. The great thing about postal voters is that 70% of them vote even in local elections, while only 25% of the rest can be bothered. And as I've said elsewhere, those 70% are in all likelihood going to vote anyway, and have just gone to the trouble of applying for a postal vote to make sure. They might be a bit put out if it were taken away, but they'd make the trip in person.
For me, the integrity of the ballot trumps convenience every time. The secret ballot had to be fought for, and we throw it away at our peril.
On balance I agree with you, but I do think a lot of the postal votes would not be cast in by-elections. It would be good to see correlations between proportion of postal votes, number of over 70s and proportion of ethnic minorities in the various electoral districts. |
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right
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Post by right on May 11, 2021 14:57:30 GMT
Nothing like a personal insult to poison the well. It diminishes you. I'm not saying it's what they should do, it's just what they could do. There's going to be a very contentious piece of legislation coming through (as it happens I dislike the photo ID requirements) and if there's credible evidence that there is postal vote fraud this could well help pass it through, and associate opposition to the measures with fraud being advantageous to Labour. Well, sorry, no insult intended. I do regard the idea of significant postal vote fraud these days as essentially "fake news" though, and if you can find "credible evidence" for it (including the Peterborough by election) I would be interested to see it. We have seen how damaging casting unjustified doubt on the electoral process has been in the USA It was more a perceived dismissing of the argument than the insult itself that I reacted to. Insults aren't rare on this forum and if I didn't like them I'd get off this forum. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 11, 2021 16:01:32 GMT
It rather depends what right meant by "help" (and that's not an implication of anything inappropriate). Short of someone physically needing assistance to mark the ballot paper - and that would, in my view, be entirely appropriate in certain circumstances - I think it should be possible to help* without seeing how someone has voted. * Help includes explaining what goes in each envelope, the need to contain the signature within the box, getting the relevant address facing out of the window etc. There were firm instructions from Kirklees elections to agents and candidates not to let any Party worker handle PV in any way. On voter ID, of course in a GE I could vote in person multiple times with little risk simply by starting at 7 am and using the electoral register to pick some youngster very unlikely to turn up in multiple polling districts. There is zero evidence that this ever happens though, and like postal vote harvesting it takes a lot of effort for a few votes. I would argue that on average PV are more secure than in person voting right now. On the first point the Elections Office really need to decide what regulation, if any, they think they're enforcing. On the second point personation runs the following risks: 1. That somebody recognises the personator; 2. That somebody recognises that the personator is not the personatee; 3. That the personatee has not already voted; 4. That somebody doesn't spot you doing it (round here we have staff, and party reps, who travel around polling stations) (and parties have the right to appoint Polling Clerks - that they very, very rarely do* attests to personation being a non-issue); 5. A criminal record. And, as you rightly point out, all this for a handful of votes - how many elections are that close-run? Our departed colleague Tony Greaves (Gv 1) often spoke on electoral malpractice linked to postal voting. Never sure he ever highlighted personation as an issue. * We have decades of election experience on here. Has anyone ever appointed Polling Clerks? Has anyone experienced personation? I have once. One elderly sister voting for her poorly sibling. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 11, 2021 16:06:24 GMT
And as I've said elsewhere, those 70% are in all likelihood going to vote anyway, and have just gone to the trouble of applying for a postal vote to make sure. They might be a bit put out if it were taken away, but they'd make the trip in person. For me, the integrity of the ballot trumps convenience every time. The secret ballot had to be fought for, and we throw it away at our peril.
In my experience the majority of people with postal votes are either elderly or disabled and cannot easily get to the polls or busy professionals who are often away. Right now the postal vote is more secure than in person voting since a signature is required and I know several people who at some time in their life have turned up at a polling station to find their vote has already been cast.. The solution to that is photo ID but there are plenty of people who do not have that More like clerical error than personation in my experience. And I'm thinking of cancelling my postal vote as my signature is erratic these days and I fear their algorithm may reject it. Not helped by the fact that the PVs are processed miles away and we are given no opportunity to challenge any discards (unlike on the day ballots). |
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,729
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 11, 2021 16:16:43 GMT
Our departed colleague Tony Greaves (Gv 1) often spoke on electoral malpractice linked to postal voting. Never sure he ever highlighted personation as an issue. * We have decades of election experience on here. Has anyone ever appointed Polling Clerks? Has anyone experienced personation? I have once. One elderly sister voting for her poorly sibling. Polling Agents, I think you mean. IIRC johnhemming and Roger Harmer may have some experience of this in Birmingham.
Not quite personation, but I think I remember, during the 1987 election, one of our members spotted on the electoral register that his Tory-voting next door neighbour's underage children - and we're not talking about 17-going-on-18s here - had been entered with no indication of their underage status. We reported this to the elections office, I think they said that they would send a letter advising that the law would be broken if the children's votes were cast.
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 11, 2021 16:20:32 GMT
Our departed colleague Tony Greaves (Gv 1) often spoke on electoral malpractice linked to postal voting. Never sure he ever highlighted personation as an issue. * We have decades of election experience on here. Has anyone ever appointed Polling Clerks? Has anyone experienced personation? I have once. One elderly sister voting for her poorly sibling. Polling Agents, I think you mean. IIRC johnhemming and Roger Harmer may have some experience of this in Birmingham. Not quite personation, but I think I remember, during the 1987 election, one of our members spotted on the electoral register that his Tory-voting next door neighbour's underage children - and we're not talking about 17-going-on-18s here - had been entered with no indication of their underage status. We reported this to the elections office, I think they said that they would send a letter advising that the law would be broken if the children's votes were cast.
Indeed, Polling Agents. |
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peterl
Green
Congratulations President Trump
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Post by peterl on May 11, 2021 16:24:09 GMT
In my experience the majority of people with postal votes are either elderly or disabled and cannot easily get to the polls or busy professionals who are often away. Right now the postal vote is more secure than in person voting since a signature is required and I know several people who at some time in their life have turned up at a polling station to find their vote has already been cast.. The solution to that is photo ID but there are plenty of people who do not have that More like clerical error than personation in my experience. And I'm thinking of cancelling my postal vote as my signature is erratic these days and I fear their algorithm may reject it. Not helped by the fact that the PVs are processed miles away and we are given no opportunity to challenge any discards (unlike on the day ballots). Before you do that, call the elections office. You might be able to apply for a signature waiver. |
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Post by iainbhx on May 11, 2021 16:28:29 GMT
Our departed colleague Tony Greaves (Gv 1) often spoke on electoral malpractice linked to postal voting. Never sure he ever highlighted personation as an issue. * We have decades of election experience on here. Has anyone ever appointed Polling Clerks? Has anyone experienced personation? I have once. One elderly sister voting for her poorly sibling. Polling Agents, I think you mean. IIRC johnhemming and Roger Harmer may have some experience of this in Birmingham. Not quite personation, but I think I remember, during the 1987 election, one of our members spotted on the electoral register that his Tory-voting next door neighbour's underage children - and we're not talking about 17-going-on-18s here - had been entered with no indication of their underage status. We reported this to the elections office, I think they said that they would send a letter advising that the law would be broken if the children's votes were cast.
Yes, we appointed polling agents in Sparkhill and Sparkbook wards in 2003 and 2004 because of some fairly small scale personation being done mainly at St Johns School and Conway School where polling staff were rather lenient with the law to say the least. However, by 2004, the joy of Postal Votes had been discovered and there was no need for them. We had previously found evidence that people had voted in person who were dead or abroad or in prison. Unfortunately this was not tested in an election court. |
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Post by Merseymike on May 11, 2021 16:32:39 GMT
"About the Heavy Woollen District Independents Due to increased media attention for the 2021 Batley and Spen by-election, where we received 12.2% of the vote in 2019, I am publishing this page to make it easier to find factual information about the Heavy Woollen District Independents." www.alekslukic.co.uk/hwdi.htmInteresting that they are 'to make an announcement in due course' They clearly think this is an opportunity for them to gain some attention, but that is only likely if they follow through with a candidate. |
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Post by pragmaticidealist on May 11, 2021 16:39:17 GMT
A bit of comfort for Labour here is that this isn't a very swingy seat.
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Post by andrew111 on May 11, 2021 18:09:34 GMT
In my experience the majority of people with postal votes are either elderly or disabled and cannot easily get to the polls or busy professionals who are often away. Right now the postal vote is more secure than in person voting since a signature is required and I know several people who at some time in their life have turned up at a polling station to find their vote has already been cast.. The solution to that is photo ID but there are plenty of people who do not have that More like clerical error than personation in my experience. And I'm thinking of cancelling my postal vote as my signature is erratic these days and I fear their algorithm may reject it. Not helped by the fact that the PVs are processed miles away and we are given no opportunity to challenge any discards (unlike on the day ballots). Yes, where a PV is rejected on signature the voter should be contacted and given the opportunity to come in person to the electoral office, prove identity, and have their vote cast, as they do in many US states. Or they could do it via zoom these days. I have worried about my signature but only in the Euro election has it ever made a difference for so long that I don't worry much. |
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