Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,748
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 17, 2021 11:36:36 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. JWs don't vote, IIRC, but probably don't count as "christians". |
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Post by andrew111 on May 17, 2021 11:36:49 GMT
My guess is, unless the government have chosen to prioritise this Bill, it’ll not be a big influence as most regular voters will either be unaware of it or supportive of the principle of stopping voter fraud. If it were to play then Labour certainly have a potential opening amongst younger Muslim women voters as there is the cultural issue that in the more adherent families women aren’t allowed to have their own identities - they don’t drive, have their own bank accounts, etc. This could be campaigned on as disenfranchising that community just as the Democrats argue voter ID has a greater adverse impact on African American and Latino voters. Opposition parties should indeed swing behind free ID for elections - requiring a driving licence or passport is GOP-style vote suppression, pure and simple. Ed Davey spoke strongly against it |
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 17, 2021 11:37:49 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,952
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Post by The Bishop on May 17, 2021 11:48:02 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. JWs don't vote, IIRC, but probably don't count as "christians". Do they not? Must admit that I have always thought of them as a admittedly unusual Christian "sect". |
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Post by matureleft on May 17, 2021 11:52:50 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). It hinges, I would guess, on the interpretation both of Christ's careful "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" and other New Testament references on obeying the authority of any state. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,730
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Post by CatholicLeft on May 17, 2021 11:56:20 GMT
JWs don't vote, IIRC, but probably don't count as "christians". Do they not? Must admit that I have always thought of them as a admittedly unusual Christian "sect". They are not Trinitarian, not accepting the Credal statements of the Councils, so do not normally count as Christian. Indeed, they never used to use the term of themselves until it seemed like a way into getting a conversation going at the door "Oh, we are Christian too." |
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Post by andrew111 on May 17, 2021 11:56:53 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). Plymouth Brethren don't vote either. But in my direct experience they do lobby local councillors extremely hard when they want Planning approval for a new meeting house... |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,730
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Post by CatholicLeft on May 17, 2021 11:57:27 GMT
Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). It hinges, I would guess, on the interpretation both of Christ's careful "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" and other New Testament references on obeying the authority of any state. Wasn't their a case of them voting in a crucial election in Northern Ireland to stop the Republican or Nationalist winning? |
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Post by justin124 on May 17, 2021 12:06:34 GMT
Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). It hinges, I would guess, on the interpretation both of Christ's careful "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" and other New Testament references on obeying the authority of any state. Many think of a 'Conservative Christian' as a contradiction in terms. I know of someone who always described Thatcher as 'the Anti-Christ'. |
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
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Post by timmullen1 on May 17, 2021 12:09:59 GMT
JWs don't vote, IIRC, but probably don't count as "christians". Do they not? Must admit that I have always thought of them as a admittedly unusual Christian "sect". No, and it was only when threatened with legal action that they agreed to a local Kingdom Hall being used as an emergency polling station after the usual one next door had suffered major damage in a fire. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on May 17, 2021 12:18:17 GMT
Exclusive Brethren do not vote (or certainly didn't when I had a housemate at Uni who was of that persuasion). Plymouth Brethren don't vote either. But in my direct experience they do lobby local councillors extremely hard when they want Planning approval for a new meeting house... Experience with my former housemate kept me from using the "P" word. My understanding at the time was that there was a division within the Brethren on the matter, with the Exclusive Brethren not voting and more "liberal" Brethren participating. |
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Post by Merseymike on May 17, 2021 12:33:19 GMT
I’ve never met a conservative Christian who didn’t vote on principle. And only ever heard of one (who may have been teasing an impertinent interviewer). Evelyn Waugh, on being quizzed, replied that he didn’t vote , as he didn’t presume to advise Her Majesty on her choice of servants. The Brethren do not vote, and other fundamentalists used to take the same view - seeing it as being "of the world". There has always been a very small number here. It was not uncommon for American fundamentalists not to vote which is why the groups like the Moral Majority were so controversial when they first emerged. Similarly small numbers of Salafi Muslims would not consider voting for anyone, seeing Western liberal democracy as anti-Islamic. On the JW's, one of the Williams sisters talked clearly about having voted in an interview and then suddenly remembered she wasn't meant to have done so! |
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Chris from Brum
Lib Dem
What I need is a strong drink and a peer group.
Posts: 9,748
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 17, 2021 12:34:41 GMT
JWs don't vote, IIRC, but probably don't count as "christians". Do they not? Must admit that I have always thought of them as a admittedly unusual Christian "sect". I'm not 100% sure, to be honest. They're so determinedly separate from mainstream christianity that I find it hard to consider them christian, but perhaps they'd better tell us themselves. I don't suppose there are any on this forum, however, unless there's an XJW lurking. |
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Post by Merseymike on May 17, 2021 12:47:10 GMT
Do they not? Must admit that I have always thought of them as a admittedly unusual Christian "sect". They are not Trinitarian, not accepting the Credal statements of the Councils, so do not normally count as Christian. Indeed, they never used to use the term of themselves until it seemed like a way into getting a conversation going at the door "Oh, we are Christian too." Yes - I don't think they formally use the term at all. They are literally the "witnesses of Jehovah". The Mormons, on the other hand, do regard themselves as Christians, and are far less "separatist" than the JW's. On the whole the JW's are very poor as education is seen as worldly so they tend to have low paid jobs, and their teaching encourages them to look drab and not spend money on worldly things. Mormons, on the other hand, not only appear to have a gene pool where good looks appear almost universal, but are very openly about doing well and education is encouraged. Culturally they fit into America far better despite the fact that their theology is as wacky as could be. I recall rather enjoying my visits from the very handsome young Mormons who had beautiful teeth and very impressive thighs - they were always really charming and polite and I could see why, if I had been minded to look for a religion, why it might appeal. I still have the Book of Mormon they gave me. The Osmonds gave the religion a huge boost here, I recall at primary school a girl whose dad used to drive her over to the Mormon church in Reading. She became a member,married into the church and is still a Mormon to this day. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 17, 2021 13:15:04 GMT
Cllr Salma Arif of Leeds is not standing for selection:
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Post by andrew111 on May 17, 2021 13:15:51 GMT
They are not Trinitarian, not accepting the Credal statements of the Councils, so do not normally count as Christian. Indeed, they never used to use the term of themselves until it seemed like a way into getting a conversation going at the door "Oh, we are Christian too." Yes - I don't think they formally use the term at all. They are literally the "witnesses of Jehovah". The Mormons, on the other hand, do regard themselves as Christians, and are far less "separatist" than the JW's. On the whole the JW's are very poor as education is seen as worldly so they tend to have low paid jobs, and their teaching encourages them to look drab and not spend money on worldly things. Mormons, on the other hand, not only appear to have a gene pool where good looks appear almost universal, but are very openly about doing well and education is encouraged. Culturally they fit into America far better despite the fact that their theology is as wacky as could be. I recall rather enjoying my visits from the very handsome young Mormons who had beautiful teeth and very impressive thighs - they were always really charming and polite and I could see why, if I had been minded to look for a religion, why it might appeal. I still have the Book of Mormon they gave me. The Osmonds gave the religion a huge boost here, I recall at primary school a girl whose dad used to drive her over to the Mormon church in Reading. She became a member,married into the church and is still a Mormon to this day. They are the "Christian Congregation of Jehovahs Witnesses" according to their website. I have not made any study of their thighs but I was very impressed when JW's from all over the UK came and built a new meeting house in Horsforth, Leeds in two weekends from scratch. I think we should put them in charge of HS2! |
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Post by andrew111 on May 17, 2021 13:20:49 GMT
Plymouth Brethren don't vote either. But in my direct experience they do lobby local councillors extremely hard when they want Planning approval for a new meeting house... Experience with my former housemate kept me from using the "P" word. My understanding at the time was that there was a division within the Brethren on the matter, with the Exclusive Brethren not voting and more "liberal" Brethren participating. Whoever they are, the Plymouth Brethren exist... |
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Post by greenchristian on May 17, 2021 20:43:46 GMT
It hinges, I would guess, on the interpretation both of Christ's careful "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" and other New Testament references on obeying the authority of any state. Many think of a 'Conservative Christian' as a contradiction in terms. I know of someone who always described Thatcher as 'the Anti-Christ'. That's because they're using the word conservative in its political sense, rather than its theological one. It's entirely possible for somebody's theological conservatism to lead them to a politically left-wing stance on many issues, which may well be what's behind the stance of the person you mention. They are not Trinitarian, not accepting the Credal statements of the Councils, so do not normally count as Christian. Indeed, they never used to use the term of themselves until it seemed like a way into getting a conversation going at the door "Oh, we are Christian too." Yes - I don't think they formally use the term at all. They are literally the "witnesses of Jehovah". The Mormons, on the other hand, do regard themselves as Christians, and are far less "separatist" than the JW's. On the whole the JW's are very poor as education is seen as worldly so they tend to have low paid jobs, and their teaching encourages them to look drab and not spend money on worldly things. Which is a somewhat odd difference. Theologically speaking JWs are closer to (small-o) orthodox Christianity than Mormons are. JW theology is, essentially, a revival of Arianism with added theological quirks. Mormons believe in multiple gods, and their understanding of the one god they actually worship lacks several of the attributes that basically define the monotheistic concept of God (they don't believe God is uncreated and immaterial). |
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Post by Merseymike on May 17, 2021 20:55:14 GMT
Yes, I agree. Mormonism really is a very curious selection of opinions (though the idea that one day you'll get your own planet has its plus points). Yet culturally, they are very American.
There are currently 3 Tory Mormon MPs, a former Labour one, and a former SNP MSP.
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Post by Merseymike on May 17, 2021 21:35:16 GMT
One current MSP, Karen Adam. Sits next to me in the cooncil. A good example for those who think that if your life is a car crash, that somehow qualifies you by reason of life experience to tell people whose life is not a car crash how to live their lives. Is she related to the late Brian Adam? He was the original MSP who was a Mormon. I remember you being critical of anyone who hadn't followed an orthodox business career as a suitable candidate, whereas I think the opposite (on the whole successful business people make awful politicians) - sounds as if she has plenty of valuable life experiences. |
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