hengo
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Post by hengo on Feb 22, 2021 16:28:05 GMT
If it separated The Labour Party into to what may be its natural components - ie some kind of genuine socialist party , which I presume is what Mike would feel comfortable voting for, and a “ progressive” non socialist party ( effectively what the old Liberal Party tried to be) , then it’s very unlikely that the Socialists would ever attain power- less likely than under the present system where they potentially influence any incoming Labour government even if, to be elected , it had had to tack to the centre. Meanwhile it opens up the possibility of coalitions which would please no one , government by backroom deals, and blackmail by minor parties representing small factions. Sounds ghastly to me. And I don’t see where it works so well that we should all be easily satisfied that it is any better than what we have.
The arguments for electoral reform all seem to appeal to “ fairness”. As though it were a game . I think that’s illusory anyway , but I’m with a sound old Tory- Alexander Pope- “ For forms of government let fools contest/ What’ere is best administered is best.”
Of course we may differ wildly on whether we are currently well administered! My opinion is that on the whole we are, or at least not too badly- with all its faults I think our system has worked pretty well for a very long period of time and I’m not in favour of any leaps in the dark. Which of course is why I generally vote conservative!
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 22, 2021 17:41:34 GMT
Well I guess you can always say that of each party. They evolve of course or disappear, which seems at the moment to be the more likely fate of the LibDems. I'd wager the Greens either merge with or eclipse the LibDems by the end of the 2020s. You'll get splitters from both sides who want to be a "proper" Green/LibDem party. I'm an engineer. I'll be one of them. The way things are going, it won't need the influx of anti-sciencers from the Green Party to do that, we seem to be doing well enough nuturing our own. |
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mondialito
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Post by mondialito on Feb 22, 2021 18:50:04 GMT
Given the volatility even under FPTP over the past ten years, a PR Westminster system could resemble the Netherlands. Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 22, 2021 19:12:23 GMT
Given the volatility even under FPTP over the past ten years, a PR Westminster system could resemble the Netherlands. Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. Which countries have that? Israel? |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 22, 2021 19:14:27 GMT
If it separated The Labour Party into to what may be its natural components - ie some kind of genuine socialist party , which I presume is what Mike would feel comfortable voting for, and a “ progressive” non socialist party ( effectively what the old Liberal Party tried to be) , then it’s very unlikely that the Socialists would ever attain power- less likely than under the present system where they potentially influence any incoming Labour government even if, to be elected , it had had to tack to the centre. Meanwhile it opens up the possibility of coalitions which would please no one , government by backroom deals, and blackmail by minor parties representing small factions. Sounds ghastly to me. And I don’t see where it works so well that we should all be easily satisfied that it is any better than what we have. The arguments for electoral reform all seem to appeal to “ fairness”. As though it were a game . I think that’s illusory anyway , but I’m with a sound old Tory- Alexander Pope- “ For forms of government let fools contest/ What’ere is best administered is best.” Of course we may differ wildly on whether we are currently well administered! My opinion is that on the whole we are, or at least not too badly- with all its faults I think our system has worked pretty well for a very long period of time and I’m not in favour of any leaps in the dark. Which of course is why I generally vote conservative! As I say, you have parties to vote for. I don't. If this is working well, then I dread to think what badly would look like! |
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mondialito
Labour
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Post by mondialito on Feb 22, 2021 19:21:29 GMT
Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. Which countries have that? Israel? Doesn't the Netherlands use that too? |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 22, 2021 19:23:26 GMT
Which countries have that? Israel? Doesn't the Netherlands use that too? I thought they used regional lists? |
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Post by pragmaticidealist on Feb 22, 2021 19:33:26 GMT
Given the volatility even under FPTP over the past ten years, a PR Westminster system could resemble the Netherlands. Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. A regional one could be even more fun. At least three different nationalist parties each in Wales and Scotland with representation I would predict. |
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on Feb 22, 2021 19:49:07 GMT
If it separated The Labour Party into to what may be its natural components - ie some kind of genuine socialist party , which I presume is what Mike would feel comfortable voting for, and a “ progressive” non socialist party ( effectively what the old Liberal Party tried to be) , then it’s very unlikely that the Socialists would ever attain power- less likely than under the present system where they potentially influence any incoming Labour government even if, to be elected , it had had to tack to the centre. Meanwhile it opens up the possibility of coalitions which would please no one , government by backroom deals, and blackmail by minor parties representing small factions. Sounds ghastly to me. And I don’t see where it works so well that we should all be easily satisfied that it is any better than what we have. The arguments for electoral reform all seem to appeal to “ fairness”. As though it were a game . I think that’s illusory anyway , but I’m with a sound old Tory- Alexander Pope- “ For forms of government let fools contest/ What’ere is best administered is best.” Of course we may differ wildly on whether we are currently well administered! My opinion is that on the whole we are, or at least not too badly- with all its faults I think our system has worked pretty well for a very long period of time and I’m not in favour of any leaps in the dark. Which of course is why I generally vote conservative! As I say, you have parties to vote for. I don't. If this is working well, then I dread to think what badly would look like! You hardly need to wonder- you have the whole world to look at as well as history. All the catastrophic failures of socialism among them. |
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Feb 22, 2021 20:01:18 GMT
Doesn't the Netherlands use that too? I thought they used regional lists? No, they have a national list and no threshold - in practice you need about 0.7% for a seat. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Feb 22, 2021 20:10:34 GMT
As I say, you have parties to vote for. I don't. If this is working well, then I dread to think what badly would look like! You hardly need to wonder- you have the whole world to look at as well as history. All the catastrophic failures of socialism among them. When it's actually tried, let me know. But democracy which is nothing but a charade and a sham isn't anything to celebrate. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 22, 2021 20:18:35 GMT
If it separated The Labour Party into to what may be its natural components - ie some kind of genuine socialist party , which I presume is what Mike would feel comfortable voting for, and a “ progressive” non socialist party ( effectively what the old Liberal Party tried to be) , then it’s very unlikely that the Socialists would ever attain power- less likely than under the present system where they potentially influence any incoming Labour government even if, to be elected , it had had to tack to the centre. Meanwhile it opens up the possibility of coalitions which would please no one , government by backroom deals, and blackmail by minor parties representing small factions. Sounds ghastly to me. And I don’t see where it works so well that we should all be easily satisfied that it is any better than what we have. The arguments for electoral reform all seem to appeal to “ fairness”. As though it were a game . I think that’s illusory anyway , but I’m with a sound old Tory- Alexander Pope- “ For forms of government let fools contest/ What’ere is best administered is best.” Of course we may differ wildly on whether we are currently well administered! My opinion is that on the whole we are, or at least not too badly- with all its faults I think our system has worked pretty well for a very long period of time and I’m not in favour of any leaps in the dark. Which of course is why I generally vote conservative! As I say, you have parties to vote for. I don't. If this is working well, then I dread to think what badly would look like! "Fairness" is in the eye of the beholder, and I wish supporters of electoral reform would stop banging on about it, and promote better thought-out arguments and justify them. Eg, I support small-ish STV for local government, not from any principal of fairness, but it spreads the representation across the council area, resulting in what I believe is a more representative representation if a couple of Labour councillors get elected in Hallam reflecting the Labour support there and a couple of non-Labour councillors get elected in Brightside, ditto, and works against representatives becoming complacent of their support "sod them lot, they'll always vote for us" or pork-barrelling their support "sod them lot, they never vote for us". |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
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Post by J.G.Harston on Feb 22, 2021 20:31:16 GMT
You hardly need to wonder- you have the whole world to look at as well as history. All the catastrophic failures of socialism among them. When it's actually tried, let me know. But democracy which is nothing but a charade and a sham isn't anything to celebrate. I think you might agree with my position (but from the other direction) that democratic socialism is impossible: with democracy you can't have socialism - they won't vote for it - and with socialism you can't have democacy - they'll vote it out. |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Feb 22, 2021 21:15:09 GMT
Given the volatility even under FPTP over the past ten years, a PR Westminster system could resemble the Netherlands. Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. That would actually be interesting. I expect the SNP and Plaid Cymru would pick up some votes in England. Might be bad for the SDLP though, if Labour was on the ballot paper in NI. |
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Post by johnloony on Feb 22, 2021 21:43:34 GMT
Which countries have that? Israel? Doesn't the Netherlands use that too? Of course Netherlands does, which is precisely why pragmaticidealist made that point in the first place. The difference is that Israel has a threshold of about 3% whereas Netherlands doesn't. If the UK used a national list system for the House of Commons, then obviously different lists would be used in the four nations - otherwise there would be the nonsense of allowing people in Kent to vote for the SNP (etc) - and by extension, it is very likely that England would be divided into the regions anyway. Obviously if list PR were used in the UK, the constituencies would be much smaller anyway, with a district magnitude of probably no more than about 15, and probably much less. P.S. One other country which used a national closed list system was Togo, but that was when it was a single party state and the parliamentary election was merely to rubber-stamp the list of 200 candidates of the Rally of the Togolese People. |
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Post by londonseal80 on Feb 23, 2021 6:14:36 GMT
Well I guess you can always say that of each party. They evolve of course or disappear, which seems at the moment to be the more likely fate of the LibDems. I'd wager the Greens either merge with or eclipse the LibDems by the end of the 2020s. I do see the possibility of second Green seat, where that is maybe less obvious at the moment, they have tried and failed in both Bristol West and Norwich South. Sheffield Central would be one possibility, if not then maybe a London seat like Streatham or Dulwich? A random by-election gain could be another route? |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 23, 2021 9:25:10 GMT
The Green's big problem is that they do best among younger, middle class voters and among higher education students. Those voters have a secondary characteristic: they live in rented housing, and they are highly mobile. That makes it very difficult for the Green Party to build up any firm base in a single area.
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Post by johnloony on Feb 23, 2021 10:13:26 GMT
The Green's big problem is that they do best among younger, middle class voters and among higher education students. Those voters have a secondary characteristic: they live in rented housing, and they are highly mobile. That makes it very difficult for the Green Party to build up any firm base in a single area. The secondary problem is a function of the first. If the Green Party built up its support to be getting 10% or 15% regularly in opinion polls, its support would expand beyond that demographic and therefore be in a better position to grow roots and bases. It would then be in a position to start winning a handful of seats, rather than just one, as UKIP (almost) did in 2015. All of which is another way of saying that if they get more votes, they win more seats... which is, er, how elections are supposed to work (even under FPTP). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 10:40:15 GMT
Good thing no-one is seriously suggesting pure, national list PR for Westminster. That would actually be interesting. I expect the SNP and Plaid Cymru would pick up some votes in England. Might be bad for the SDLP though, if Labour was on the ballot paper in NI. It might also be interesting to see if Sinn Féin pick up any significant votes in areas of Great Britain with large Irish populations, or to see how well Labour would do in parts of the West Country and the Home Counties (is how many of those LibDem votes are tactical ones from people who would prefer to vote Labour) |
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hengo
Conservative
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Post by hengo on Feb 23, 2021 10:57:50 GMT
It would make more sense in a way for large number of Labour votes- from those who only vote for it as they see it as the progressive alternative to the Conservatives to switch to the LibDems leaving Labour as a clearly socialist party. Or for Socialists to break away leaving Labour and the LibDems to combine to make a natural Social Democratic Party. But people in the parties have personal ambitions which would probably get in the way as they have in the past.
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