xenon
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Post by xenon on Nov 9, 2022 19:23:45 GMT
Currently reading through the minutes that were published alongside the revised proposals and came across this...
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xenon
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Post by xenon on Nov 9, 2022 23:21:18 GMT
OK, for info, the name of the village is Largoward. And it happens to be in a ward called Leven, Kennoway and Largoward And yes, socially it more belongs in North East Fife than in Kircaldy or Glenrothes and there are very few other options as to how to expand the NE Fife constituency which is surrounded on sea or estuary on three sides other than big radical ones like over-adding Kinrosshire cross authority which would involve removing something else to bring the numbers back down to quota. NE Fife has the Tay to the north, the North Sea to the East and the Forth to the South. You may think that leaves the West, but it doesn't. The middle Half of the west is blocked by the unpopulated Lomond Hills mastiff, leaving only a narrow Northwest option to Kinrosshire or a narrow southwest option to Kennoway and Leven Beyond this the only other option is to abolish the constituency and do an appalling cross-estuary abomination that places Taybridgehead and St Andrews cross authority into Dundee, the East Neuk into Kircaldy, the Howe of Fife into Glenrothes and Newburgh cross authority into Perthshire Do you reckon keeping North East Fife's current boundaries and adding Kinross would be an acceptable solution then (which I think is in quota)? Frankly I think anything is better than what the commission cooked up to appease Kinross folk, which results in the horrible Denny and Auchuterader seat being formed from the leftovers. |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Nov 9, 2022 23:40:03 GMT
OK, for info, the name of the village is Largoward. And it happens to be in a ward called Leven, Kennoway and Largoward And yes, socially it more belongs in North East Fife than in Kircaldy or Glenrothes and there are very few other options as to how to expand the NE Fife constituency which is surrounded on sea or estuary on three sides other than big radical ones like over-adding Kinrosshire cross authority which would involve removing something else to bring the numbers back down to quota. NE Fife has the Tay to the north, the North Sea to the East and the Forth to the South. You may think that leaves the West, but it doesn't. The middle Half of the west is blocked by the unpopulated Lomond Hills mastiff, leaving only a narrow Northwest option to Kinrosshire or a narrow southwest option to Kennoway and Leven Beyond this the only other option is to abolish the constituency and do an appalling cross-estuary abomination that places Taybridgehead and St Andrews cross authority into Dundee, the East Neuk into Kircaldy, the Howe of Fife into Glenrothes and Newburgh cross authority into Perthshire Do you reckon keeping North East Fife's current boundaries and adding Kinross would be an acceptable solution then (which I think is in quota)? Frankly I think anything is better than what the commission cooked up to appease Kinross folk, which results in the horrible Denny and Auchuterader seat being formed from the leftovers. Another (bonkers) idea would be to join Fife, West of Dunfermline, to Fife, East of Dunfermline, via Kinross. |
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Post by bjornhattan on Nov 10, 2022 0:34:05 GMT
What do we get if we add Clackmannanshire to Kinrosshire? Pitchforks in Milnathort. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 10, 2022 1:04:31 GMT
Do you reckon keeping North East Fife's current boundaries and adding Kinross would be an acceptable solution then (which I think is in quota)? Frankly I think anything is better than what the commission cooked up to appease Kinross folk, which results in the horrible Denny and Auchuterader seat being formed from the leftovers. Another (bonkers) idea would be to join Fife, West of Dunfermline, to Fife, East of Dunfermline, via Kinross. Kinross? That's a service station on the M90 isn't it? 
Which reminds me, next time I drive up to Aberdeen I'll make a diversion and pop to Newburgh for food.  |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 10, 2022 1:18:06 GMT
What do we get if we add Clackmannanshire to Kinrosshire? Pitchforks in Milnathort. I believe my first independent home with my Mother was at Rumbling Bridge on the Kinrossshire side. |
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islington
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Post by islington on Nov 10, 2022 7:05:37 GMT
What do we get if we add Clackmannanshire to Kinrosshire? Actually a quite neatly drawn constituency that functioned perfectly well, so far as I know, from 1832 all the way through to 1918. Prior to 1832 the two counties took turns to be represented. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 10, 2022 7:09:54 GMT
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islington
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Post by islington on Nov 10, 2022 9:32:35 GMT
Do you reckon keeping North East Fife's current boundaries and adding Kinross would be an acceptable solution then (which I think is in quota)? Frankly I think anything is better than what the commission cooked up to appease Kinross folk, which results in the horrible Denny and Auchuterader seat being formed from the leftovers. Another (bonkers) idea would be to join Fife, West of Dunfermline, to Fife, East of Dunfermline, via Kinross. Why is it bonkers?
You could do this ...
Or this ...
Or indeed this ...
The last of these may be the bonkersest but it gets extra brownie points for linking Kinross with not two but three non-contiguous parts of Fife. The other two don't look unreasonable to an English eye and please note that all three schemes allow the rest of Fife to be divided into reasonably logical constituencies without a ward split in sight.
I'm not saying any of them is perfect but they all make a lot more sense than joining Auchterarder and Denny.
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Post by aidanthomson on Nov 10, 2022 9:41:13 GMT
Indeed. But the knock-on effect would be a Tay Banks or Forth Banks seat as Fife isn't big enough to have four seats on its own. So it's a case of the least worst option here. The proposed North East Fife is a good seat. The knock-on effect is either Glenrothes and Kinross, which is a poor seat; or West Clacks, Denny and Gleneagles (or whatever it's called), which is an awful seat. Replacing Leven with Kinross in North East Fife makes that seat less good. But there is more of a community of interest between rural East Fife and Kinross than between Glenrothes and Kinross. It avoids splitting Clackmannanshire, which would be unprecedented and should be unnecessary given the size of the Wee County. It avoids having a seat that straddles the Ochil hills (which are higher and have fewer direct transport links through them than do the Lomond hills). It avoid splitting Kinross-shire (which the Commission still do). Basically, it's a choice between a good seat and a monstrosity, and two slightly 'meh' seats. |
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Post by aidanthomson on Nov 11, 2022 9:30:00 GMT
It avoids having a seat that straddles the Ochil hills (which are higher and have fewer direct transport links through them than do the Lomond hills). so without checking the road map I know that fewer can only mean zero. And I have driven across it and had lunch at Sheriffmuir Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. What I meant, and should have said, was that the Clacks seat *as proposed* has fewer roads across the Ochils from the Perthshire part of the constituency to the Clacks part (none) than do the Lomonds. There is one road through the Ochils (the Glendevon one), but the Clacks end of it would be in the redrawn Dunfermline seat, not the Clacks one. Having had a closer look at the Commission's proposals, they look a bit better in Fife than I had first thought. North East Fife is a good seat. While I don't like the splits to Kinross or Clacks there is some logic to them. The Fife wards east of the M90 (excluding the NE Fife ones) don't have quite enough electors to make the minimum for two seats, and crossing the M90 would split Dunfermline between seats, hence making up the numbers by including a bit of Kinross-shire. And it's only Clacks East that has been added to Dunfermline (I'd originally thought it was more), which means that Alloa isn't split. The problem is the Clacks/Denny/bit of Perthshire seat. But there is a solution of a sort, which involves splitting Stirling: Transfer Bannockburn ward (minus Bannockburn village itself) from Stirling to Clacks. Transfer the bit of Perthshire around Blackford from Clacks to Stirling, along with Strathearn ward (Crieff). I don't have all the numbers to hand but I think that it should be within range. |
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Post by bjornhattan on Nov 11, 2022 10:28:51 GMT
so without checking the road map I know that fewer can only mean zero. And I have driven across it and had lunch at Sheriffmuir Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. What I meant, and should have said, was that the Clacks seat *as proposed* has fewer roads across the Ochils from the Perthshire part of the constituency to the Clacks part (none) than do the Lomonds. There is one road through the Ochils (the Glendevon one), but the Clacks end of it would be in the redrawn Dunfermline seat, not the Clacks one. Having had a closer look at the Commission's proposals, they look a bit better in Fife than I had first thought. North East Fife is a good seat. While I don't like the splits to Kinross or Clacks there is some logic to them. The Fife wards east of the M90 (excluding the NE Fife ones) don't have quite enough electors to make the minimum for two seats, and crossing the M90 would split Dunfermline between seats, hence making up the numbers by including a bit of Kinross-shire. And it's only Clacks East that has been added to Dunfermline (I'd originally thought it was more), which means that Alloa isn't split. The problem is the Clacks/Denny/bit of Perthshire seat. But there is a solution of a sort, which involves splitting Stirling: Transfer Bannockburn ward (minus Bannockburn village itself) from Stirling to Clacks. Transfer the bit of Perthshire around Blackford from Clacks to Stirling, along with Strathearn ward (Crieff). I don't have all the numbers to hand but I think that it should be within range. It splits the Stirling Council area, but those parts of Bannockburn ward are distinct from the city so it's not like that plan splits an urban area. Villages like Fallin and Throsk are a sensible extension of the area around Airth and Dunmore in the proposed Clacks seat. |
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Post by aidanthomson on Nov 11, 2022 14:15:30 GMT
Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. What I meant, and should have said, was that the Clacks seat *as proposed* has fewer roads across the Ochils from the Perthshire part of the constituency to the Clacks part (none) than do the Lomonds. There is one road through the Ochils (the Glendevon one), but the Clacks end of it would be in the redrawn Dunfermline seat, not the Clacks one. Having had a closer look at the Commission's proposals, they look a bit better in Fife than I had first thought. North East Fife is a good seat. While I don't like the splits to Kinross or Clacks there is some logic to them. The Fife wards east of the M90 (excluding the NE Fife ones) don't have quite enough electors to make the minimum for two seats, and crossing the M90 would split Dunfermline between seats, hence making up the numbers by including a bit of Kinross-shire. And it's only Clacks East that has been added to Dunfermline (I'd originally thought it was more), which means that Alloa isn't split. The problem is the Clacks/Denny/bit of Perthshire seat. But there is a solution of a sort, which involves splitting Stirling: Transfer Bannockburn ward (minus Bannockburn village itself) from Stirling to Clacks. Transfer the bit of Perthshire around Blackford from Clacks to Stirling, along with Strathearn ward (Crieff). I don't have all the numbers to hand but I think that it should be within range. It splits the Stirling Council area, but those parts of Bannockburn ward are distinct from the city so it's not like that plan splits an urban area. Villages like Fallin and Throsk are a sensible extension of the area around Airth and Dunmore in the proposed Clacks seat. Something like this. Falkirk and the four Fife seats as proposed. The split in Strathallan puts Muthill, Braco and Greenloaning in Stirling and Crieff, which is about 1800 electors. The built-up bit of Bannockburn is about 2600 electors. (Ignore the apparent split in Stirling North ward; it's all in the one seat.)  |
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Post by aidanthomson on Nov 12, 2022 13:22:53 GMT
Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. No, no, Not at all, my apologies I don't know the area well enough to know I was referencing something you were not. I wonder if it is imperative to keep Kinross-shire as a whole? You mention the M90, Kinross and Milnathort are both east of it and comprise the vast bulk of the population. But does what is left west of the M90 enable you to build something into Clack? Including of course, for our English readers, the Yetts of Muckart Kinross and Clacks work quite well as a link, and historically there was some fluidity in exactly where the county boundaries lay. The problem, though, is what to do with Fife. Under the 5% variance rule, Fife isn't quite large enough to get four seats without including territory from elsewhere. So the question is whether this extra territory should come from Kinross-shire, or Clacks, or both. Fife, Clacks and Kinross-shire combined comes to almost exactly four and a half seats, so you'd then get into the question of where the extra half seat comes from. If you go northwards into Perthshire, the knock-on effects would mean redrawing the north-east and probably the highlands. If you go southwards into Falkirk, it's more or less what the Commission has already done. It would be a good solution if the numbers were different. Re splitting Kinross-shire: I'd say better not to, if possible. But I think it's probably inevitable, given that the Commission has twice ruled out including all of it in one seat. Their original proposals split Kinross-shire more or less down the M90, with Kinross and Milnathort going into Glenrothes and the western bit around Powmill going into Dunfermline. The revised proposals split it roughly down Loch Leven, with a small bit around Scotlandswell (less than a thousand electors) going into Glenrothes and the rest going into Perth & Loch Leven; the electorate shortfall in Dunfermline is addressed by adding Dollar. |
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Post by afleitch on Nov 12, 2022 15:05:13 GMT
Screw Kinross.
It shouldn't be able to hold hundreds of thousands of voters hostage in monstrously designed constituencies just because they shout the loudest to the Commission.
I'm half helped tempted to design seats that divide it like a pie and submit my proposals.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 12, 2022 15:31:17 GMT
Screw Kinross. It shouldn't be able to hold hundreds of thousands of voters hostage in monstrously designed constituencies just because they shout the loudest to the Commission. I'm half helped tempted to design seats that divide it like a pie and submit my proposals. I must protest that unwelcome slur on what was once my homeland. It was a full county with a long history and it is obviously very much akin to Perthshire or N E Fife. It does not deserve dismemberment nor being associated with industrial and/or rough downmarket areas with which it has no affinity or identity of any sort. |
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Post by anthonyjwells on Nov 16, 2022 12:43:24 GMT
Currently reading through the minutes that were published alongside the revised proposals Very impressed with the Scottish Commission releasing all the detailed minutes and internal documents. The Welsh Commission at least gave us the AC reports. The English Commission have released almost bugger all. |
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Post by bjornhattan on Nov 16, 2022 13:10:57 GMT
Currently reading through the minutes that were published alongside the revised proposals Very impressed with the Scottish Commission releasing all the detailed minutes and internal documents. The Welsh Commission at least gave us the AC reports. The English Commission have released almost bugger all. Have you got a link to these minutes? I can't find them on the commission’s website. |
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Post by anthonyjwells on Nov 16, 2022 16:08:21 GMT
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YL
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Post by YL on Nov 19, 2022 10:46:39 GMT
So the BCS have taken to naming constituencies partly after hills. I'm not in principle against this: Scotland has lots of hills, and they're often local landmarks which people can identify with. But...
"Bearsden & Campsie Fells" only contains part of the Campsie Fells (the bit in East Dunbartonshire) and it contains a sizable lowland area which is nowhere near either them or Bearsden, stretching south-east to Chryston and Stepps.
"Kilsyth Hills & Cumbernauld" completely ignores the East Dunbartonshire component of the constituency.
"East Lothian & Lammermuirs". The Lammermuirs are in East Lothian, or at least the bits of them in this constituency are.
"Dunfermline & East Ochils" just contains a small chunk of the Ochils, above the town of Dollar, and it's not exactly the east of the range either.
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