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Post by owainsutton on Jan 10, 2021 14:36:32 GMT
Given how tricky this is looking, is there anything that absolutely requires the boundaries to be contiguous with the North West region? We no longer have any EU constituencies to worry about, after all.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 11, 2021 8:41:04 GMT
"CUMBRIA" with Morecambe![]()  1. Carlisle & the Border (75,471) Succeeds Carlisle. Gains Longtown and the Border ward, hence the name change. 2. Penrith & Solway (75,706) Succeeds Penrith and the Border. Loses Longtown, gains Crummock from Copeland constituency (but Allerdale district) plus 6 wards from Workington including Silloth and Solway Coast. 3. Workington & Keswick (76,454) Essentialy a merger of much of the current Workington and Copeland seats, containing 12 wards from the former and 11 from the latter. The inclusion of Keswick gives it an awkward shape. 4. Barrow (75,230) Succeeds Barrow and Furness. Gains 8 wards from Copeland but loses 4 to the Kendal seat. 5. Kendal & Ulverston (76,962) Succeeds Westmorland and Lonsdale. Gains Furness and the Ulverston wards from Barrow, but loses Crooklands and Arnside to Morecambe. 6. Morecambe & Lunesdale (75,615) No name change here, but gains the aforementioned pair of South Lakeland wards, and sheds Overton. The obvious issues here are threefold: that Keswick sticks out like a sore thumb in the Workington seat with the in between wards excluded; there's a really blatant orphan ward missing from the Barrow seat; and that two wards end up in a Lancashire seat. Wards in the far north are still small enough that there should theoretically be some leeway without going over quota, so that tidy boundaries cascade down from there. In practice I can't make the Carlisle seat brush up towards the maximum any further without taking in a needless orphan ward from Allerdale or Eden. Even then, the wards are drawn in such a way that adding the wrong one could make the Penrith seat non-contiguous by detaching its inland part from its coastal one. By the time you get down to Barrow, there isn't as much wiggle room in terms of ward size. At least there, I haven't managed to create something that looks like a US congressional district! With the final problem, you'd think a solution would flow naturally if the first two could be resolved. Alternatively, I could just give up and draw 5 smaller constituencies and accept that the sixth will be half Cumbria, half Lancs, but that then leaves less leeway in the rest of the region...
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Post by andrewteale on Jan 11, 2021 9:12:52 GMT
"CUMBRIA" with Morecambe![]() 1. Carlisle & the Border (75,471) Succeeds Carlisle. Gains Longtown and the Border ward, hence the name change. 2. Penrith & Solway (75,706) Succeeds Penrith and the Border. Loses Longtown, gains Crummock from Copeland constituency (but Allerdale district) plus 6 wards from Workington including Silloth and Solway Coast. 3. Workington & Keswick (76,454) Essentialy a merger of much of the current Workington and Copeland seats, containing 12 wards from the former and 11 from the latter. The inclusion of Keswick gives it an awkward shape. 4. Barrow (75,230) Succeeds Barrow and Furness. Gains 8 wards from Copeland but loses 4 to the Kendal seat. 5. Kendal & Ulverston (76,962) Succeeds Westmorland and Lonsdale. Gains Furness and the Ulverston wards from Barrow, but loses Crooklands and Arnside to Morecambe. 6. Morecambe & Lunesdale (75,615) No name change here, but gains the aforementioned pair of South Lakeland wards, and sheds Overton. The obvious issues here are threefold: that Keswick sticks out like a sore thumb in the Workington seat with the in between wards excluded; there's a really blatant orphan ward missing from the Barrow seat; and that two wards end up in a Lancashire seat. By the time you get down to Barrow, there isn't as much wiggle room in terms of ward size. At least there, I haven't managed to create something that looks like a US congressional district! I'm afraid you have created not one but two seats like that. Keswick is connected to your Workington seat via footpaths over the highest mountains in England; and that "Barrow" seat is in two discontinuous parts. You might as well call it Duddon Banks. It's surprising you of all people didn't respect the Lancashire/Cumberland boundary, because doing so in this location is the sensible thing to do. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 11, 2021 9:38:32 GMT
"LANCASHIRE Without" 7. Lancaster & Fleetwood (69,790) I know, I know. These two would ideally be split again, but it's a rare concession to a minimal change option from me, and it avoids a huge, sprawling, rural North Lancs seat. Gains Overton, loses Wyredale, keeps Cat Smith. 8. Blackpool North & Cleveleys (72,997) Gains more Wyre wards in the Poulton-le-Fylde area and loses a few to Blackpool South. I will gladly defer to anybody with local knowledge if they have a better suggestion for which precise wards would be the best fit to move from North to South. 9. Fylde (70,061) The district alone is under quota, so this adds two wards from Wyre. 10. Blackpool South (71,185) Adds three wards from Blackpool North. See above. 11. Clitheroe (71,409) Just about succeeds Ribble Valley, I guess? Loses a whopping 17 wards to seats further south, which might not fly with the BCE. If we're not gonna have a massive North Lancashire constituency, we're inevitably gonna end up with a big 'Mid Lancs' seat of sorts, and this is it. Gains Wyredale from Lancaster and 7 wards from the effectively abolished Wyre and Preston North. Comprises wards from 'only' 3 districts, as opposed to 5 in some submissions at the last review. 12. Preston (72,946) Gains Garrison from the disappearing Wyre seat. If locals reckon this isn't the best ward to add, then I'm all ears for other suggestions. 13. Nelson & Colne (72,109) Succeeds Pendle. Comprises the whole district, plus 4 wards from Ribble Valley. 14. Burnley (72,349) Consists of the whole district plus Goodshaw and Worsley wards from Rossendale. 15. Accrington (70,718) Succeeds Hyndburn. Comprises the whole district, plus 4 wards from Ribble Valley. Loses Worsley and Greenfield wards from Rossendale. 16. Rossendale & Darwen (70,002) Loses Lower Darwen, gains Greenfield. 17. Blackburn (76,323) Is already in quota, but adds Blackburn South ward for neatness without going over the upper limit. 18. Chorley (74,568) I dare not touch Sir Lindsay's personal fiefdom. The current seat is over quota, but aligning it to new ward boundaries seems to do the trick. 19. Leyland & Bamber (75,480) Succeeds South Ribble. Sheds 3 of its West Lancs wards and both its Chorley ones. Gains the Farington and Walton-le-Dale areas from Ribble Valley. 20. Southport (74,604) Doesn't need anything adding this time, but takes in North Meols ward anyway to try to make forthcoming areas of the region less of a headache. I'm mostly happy with that, apart from the convulsions the changes inherent in the Clitheroe proposal will cause among Commissioners. Two orphan wards in West Lancashire at the end are far from ideal, but they're a sign of things to come as we enter the problem areas of north Merseyside and Wigan. You can also see in the bottom right of the map that it was a while before I got around to tackling Rochdale MB...
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 11, 2021 9:40:14 GMT
"CUMBRIA" with Morecambe1. Carlisle & the Border (75,471) Succeeds Carlisle. Gains Longtown and the Border ward, hence the name change. 2. Penrith & Solway (75,706) Succeeds Penrith and the Border. Loses Longtown, gains Crummock from Copeland constituency (but Allerdale district) plus 6 wards from Workington including Silloth and Solway Coast. 3. Workington & Keswick (76,454) Essentialy a merger of much of the current Workington and Copeland seats, containing 12 wards from the former and 11 from the latter. The inclusion of Keswick gives it an awkward shape. 4. Barrow (75,230) Succeeds Barrow and Furness. Gains 8 wards from Copeland but loses 4 to the Kendal seat. 5. Kendal & Ulverston (76,962) Succeeds Westmorland and Lonsdale. Gains Furness and the Ulverston wards from Barrow, but loses Crooklands and Arnside to Morecambe. 6. Morecambe & Lunesdale (75,615) No name change here, but gains the aforementioned pair of South Lakeland wards, and sheds Overton. The obvious issues here are threefold: that Keswick sticks out like a sore thumb in the Workington seat with the in between wards excluded; there's a really blatant orphan ward missing from the Barrow seat; and that two wards end up in a Lancashire seat. By the time you get down to Barrow, there isn't as much wiggle room in terms of ward size. At least there, I haven't managed to create something that looks like a US congressional district! I'm afraid you have created not one but two seats like that. Keswick is connected to your Workington seat via footpaths over the highest mountains in England; and that "Barrow" seat is in two discontinuous parts. You might as well call it Duddon Banks. It's surprising you of all people didn't respect the Lancashire/Cumberland boundary, because doing so in this location is the sensible thing to do. Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately of all the many overlays Boundary Assistant offers, 'Traditional County Borders' isn't yet one of them.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 10:28:25 GMT
Very interesting to see a proposed Preston which doesn't cross the Ribble!
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 11, 2021 10:47:33 GMT
If its not necessary to split Barrow district (and its not, even with these silly restrictive rules) then don't do it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 5:03:54 GMT
12 Barrow and Furness 71741 Yes 11 Copeland 72080 Yes 12 Cumberland 75659 Yes 13 Carlisle 70893 Yes 14 Penrith and the Lakes 76697 Yes 15 Morecambe Bay 74273 Yes   |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 12, 2021 5:35:34 GMT
If its not necessary to split Barrow district (and its not, even with these silly restrictive rules) then don't do it! I perhaps should've started with Barrow, instead of starting in the far north and then working southwards as I usually do. The fact that a seat which looks okay-ish on a map turns out to be topographically disconnected in reality shows how absurdly wards are sometimes drawn by the LGBCE – and further unitarisation is only likely to make things worse. The trouble is that any significantly different choices in Cumbria immediately throw the plans for northern Lancashire out the window. As for crossing the Ribble, I think what I've come up with in that area is nice and neat. There's absolutely no need to put anything south of the river in a Preston seat. But I feat the current Ribble Valley constituency losing 17 wards would just be too much of a deviation from the present situation for the Commission to stomach. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 6:18:02 GMT
If its not necessary to split Barrow district (and its not, even with these silly restrictive rules) then don't do it! I perhaps should've started with Barrow, instead of starting in the far north and then working southwards as I usually do. The fact that a seat which looks okay-ish on a map turns out to be topographically disconnected in reality shows how absurdly wards are sometimes drawn by the LGBCE – and further unitarisation is only likely to make things worse. The trouble is that any significantly different choices in Cumbria immediately throw the plans for northern Lancashire out the window. As for crossing the Ribble, I think what I've come up with in that area is nice and neat. There's absolutely no need to put anything south of the river in a Preston seat. But I feat the current Ribble Valley constituency losing 17 wards would just be too much of a deviation from the present situation for the Commission to stomach. I usually start at the top and work down, but Bish's point about Barrow got me starting there instead. Lancashire might be best tackled starting with Pendle and working west. Get the extremities sorted and everything should fit into place. Something Pete (?) said about fitting Whitworth into Rochdale has been on my mind, I might try that later. |
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Post by minionofmidas on Jan 12, 2021 7:41:50 GMT
12 Barrow and Furness 71741 Yes 11 Copeland 72080 Yes 12 Cumberland 75659 Yes 13 Carlisle 70893 Yes 14 Penrith and the Lakes 76697 Yes 15 Morecambe Bay 74273 Yes why is Carlisle drawn like that? It's a rather nice map otherwise. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 12, 2021 8:26:26 GMT
I perhaps should've started with Barrow, instead of starting in the far north and then working southwards as I usually do. The fact that a seat which looks okay-ish on a map turns out to be topographically disconnected in reality shows how absurdly wards are sometimes drawn by the LGBCE – and further unitarisation is only likely to make things worse. The trouble is that any significantly different choices in Cumbria immediately throw the plans for northern Lancashire out the window. As for crossing the Ribble, I think what I've come up with in that area is nice and neat. There's absolutely no need to put anything south of the river in a Preston seat. But I feat the current Ribble Valley constituency losing 17 wards would just be too much of a deviation from the present situation for the Commission to stomach. I usually start at the top and work down, but Bish's point about Barrow got me starting there instead. Lancashire might be best tackled starting with Pendle and working west. Get the extremities sorted and everything should fit into place. Something Pete (?) said about fitting Whitworth into Rochdale has been on my mind, I might try that later. Hmm, I wonder if there's a way to combine your Barrow and my Carlisle in the same plan without running into the stumbling blocks The Bish and Andrew Teale mentioned. The northern boundaries of Rochdale and Bury MBs certainly make for interestingly-shaped seats in that area. I suppose if you're doing things that are drastically different north of the Ribble, you might end up crossing the Lancashire CC-"Greater Manchester" imaginary border there. I've done that in a totally distinct part of the county: South West LANCASHIRE 21. Ormskirk (76,687) Succeeds West Lancashire. Loses 8 wards, but gains 8 from South Ribble (2 of which are in Chorley district). 22. Crosby & Formby (70,085) Succeeds Sefton Central, but has a better name. If a seat covering just the central part of the village of Sefton actually existed, it'd be something of a rotten borough. 23. Bootle (75,194) Doesn't have to take in any wards from Liverpool this time. 24. Liverpool Riverside (70,191) Loses Princes Park and Greenbank, gains Cressington. Lives up to its name! 25. Liverpool Wavertree (75,596) Loses Old Swan and Kensington & Fairfield, gains Woolton plus the two inland wards from Riverside. 26. Liverpool Walton (73,036) Gains Tuebrook & Stoneycroft. 27. Liverpool West Derby (76,302) Loses Tuebrook, gains 2 wards from Wavertree. 28. Garston & Halewood (76,311) Loses Cressington and Woolton, gains 3 wards from Knowsley. 29. Knowsley (71,755) Sheds 3 wards to Garston and 2 to Haydock, shifting it further north and west. Gains 3 wards from St Helens South, uniting both Prescot wards in a single seat. 30. St Helens (69,818) Succeeds St Helens South and Whiston. Loses 3 wards to Knowsley, gains Parr and Windle from St Helens North. 31. Skelmersdale (74,763) Technically succeeds Makerfield, though it scarcely covers the area of that name. Brings 8 wards with it from West Lancs, loses 2 wards each to Wigan and Leigh, but takes one back from Wigan. Similar to the Orrell & Winstanley seat I put forward last time, only this time it contains Skem. Both halves of the constituency sound Scouse to me.  32. Haydock Park (75,942) Succeeds St Helens North. Yes, I'm naming it after a racecourse. Loses 2 wards, adding Northwood and Shevington from Knowsley to make up for it. 33. Wigan (75,831) Loses Pemberton, gains Hindley, keeps Lisa Nandy. 34. Leigh (76,992) Gains 3 wards from what was Makerfield, loses a further 3 wards to a Bolton seat so that Atherton doesn't feel lonely. 35. Widnes (74,291) Succeeds Halton. Loses the Runcorn area, gains 2 wards each from Warrington North and South. 36. Warrington (74,255) Succeeds Warrington North. Loses 2 wards to Widnes, 3 to a Salford-area seat, gains 5 from Warrington South. As we approach those last few seats, you start to get the impression that the locals are beginning to sound less Liverpudlian and more Mancunian... |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 12, 2021 8:55:02 GMT
Most of Crosby isn't in the renamed Sefton Central, so Formby and Maghull would be a more accurate name
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jan 12, 2021 9:12:38 GMT
Most of Crosby isn't in the renamed Sefton Central, so Formby and Maghull would be a more accurate name Duly noted. I don't mind what it changes to, I just think the current name makes it sound like it only covers one third of a parish and has about 250 voters! |
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Post by Merseymike on Jan 12, 2021 11:31:24 GMT
Most of Crosby isn't in the renamed Sefton Central, so Formby and Maghull would be a more accurate name Duly noted. I don't mind what it changes to, I just think the current name makes it sound like it only covers one third of a parish and has about 250 voters! Sefton is the borough and that name was chosen as something anonymous and in the middle which wouldn't offend anyone. I've always thought Sefton Central sounds like a railway station |
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Post by islington on Jan 12, 2021 13:26:02 GMT
Right, here's my attempt.
A few things to say first:
I found this really difficult, and it's a first stab, not a finished product.
Secondly, I didn't look at other plans until I'd finished this one, but I've now checked back and I find I have a huge amount in common with mattb's plan. Apologies for the duplication.
We'll do this from north to south.
 Carlisle - 75868 Cockermouth - 73682 Whitehaven and Workington - 75438 Barrow - 75438 Westmorland - 74898 Morecambe - 76040
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Post by islington on Jan 12, 2021 13:43:42 GMT
The next instalment -
 Lancaster - 74992 Blackpool North and Fleetwood - 75396
Blackpool South - 76071 Fylde - 75114 Preston - 75161 Mid Lancashire - 76986 Clitheroe and Colne - 74504 Burnley - 75436 Accrington - 75551
Blackburn - 76323 Rossendale and Darwen - 73188 Chorley - 74568 Leyland - 74074
West Lancashire - 75458
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Post by islington on Jan 12, 2021 14:14:51 GMT
Greater Manchester - there are some real problems here and it needs a lot more work but everything is legal.
It's actually possible to divide Manchester into 5 seats without ward splits (to my amazement) but unfortunately it gave rise to problems elsewhere that I was unable to solve.
 Wigan - 75607 Makerfield - 75069 Leigh - 76747 Westhoughton - 73149 Bolton - 76589 Farnworth - 75629 Salford - 71012
Eccles and Davyhulme - 73843 Stretford and Sale - 73385 Altrincham and Urmston - 74185 Manchester Wythenshawe - 74587 Manchester Withington - 72328 Manchester Moss Side - 70692 Manchester Gorton - 74364 Manchester Blackley - 74209 Radcliffe - 70793 Bury - 75652 Middleton and Prestwich - 74419 Heywood and Royton - 72260 Rochdale - 72290 Oldham East - 72997 Oldham West and Droylesden - 75032 Ashton under Lyne and Stalybridge - 71134 Denton and Hyde - 72657 Stockport - 74769 Hazel Grove - 72941 Cheadle - 73775
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jan 12, 2021 14:18:28 GMT
Greater Manchester - there are some real problems here and it needs a lot more work but everything is legal. It's actually possible to divide Manchester into 5 seats without ward splits (to my amazement) but unfortunately it gave rise to problems elsewhere that I was unable to solve.
Wigan - 75607 Makerfield - 75069 Leigh - 76747 Westhoughton - 73149 Bolton - 76589 Farnworth - 75629 Salford - 71012
Eccles and Davyhulme - 73843 Stretford and Sale - 73385 Altrincham and Urmston - 74185 Manchester Wythenshawe - 74587 Manchester Withington - 72328 Manchester Moss Side - 70692 Manchester Gorton - 74364 Manchester Blackley - 74209 Radcliffe - 70793 Bury - 75652 Middleton and Prestwich - 74419 Heywood and Royton - 72260 Rochdale - 72290 Oldham East - 72997 Oldham West and Droylesden - 75032 Ashton under Lyne and Stalybridge - 71134 Denton and Hyde - 72657 Stockport - 74769 Hazel Grove - 72941 Cheadle - 73775
Nice gerrymander in Altrincham and Sale. I'm sure the residents of Hale Barns are going to love being in Manchester Wythensawe. Shame cos its pretty good outside the Trafford borough area. Could you not get Sale Moor into Wythenshawe instead? |
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Post by islington on Jan 12, 2021 14:28:31 GMT
More troubles here - I'm not unhappy with Liverpool but this version of St Helens N is not exactly a thing of beauty.
I've taken the liberty of rejigging the seats in Sefton but only to show an alternative to the current arrangement. In practice I'm sure the existing seats will be waved through.  Southport - 71037 Crosby - 69865 Bootle - 75414 Liverpool Central - 70382 Liverpool Toxteth - 72750 Liverpool Garston - 70742 Liverpool West Derby - 75830 Liverpool Walton and Kirkby - 75311 Huyton and Halewood - 70126 St Helens North - 76983 St Helens South and Prescot - 76827 Birkenhead and Wallasey - 75320 Bebington - 69819 Heswall and Hoylake - 76312 Ellesmere Port - 71027
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